Winter Break over - Daughter/Father Relationship a total disaster

Parents Forum
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<p>There will be no quick and easy. Sounds like you need a counselor, but I KNOW from my own experience here (see slacker son threads) that venting, organizing your thoughts to present to others, and just being heard are a great relief. </p>

<p>Still recommend a counselor, tho', especially for your H if he will go. You can only do so much reassuring, at some point he has to reassure himself. He also may not realize how insulting his questions re hanky-panky are! Asking him "What grounds do you base that question on? Have you seen her hanky-panky? Do you feel that we gave her no moral compass in the 18 years we reared her? blah blah blah... many of these questions are also better from a counselor, because sometimes H's (IMHO) will answer someone else, while they just think wife is starting an arguement.</p>

<p>My D and I were the ones to go around some minor "I'm a grown-up" now. And she took some of Natures Way to make sure I was glad she got into an away college. But SO LONG AS YOU DON"T KEEP DIGGING A DEEPER HOLE ... these things can be resolved and just take some time and thought. </p>

<p>Good luck and try to think of a few things that went / are going right! Good gpa YAY!</p>

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<p>Fannypack.... try to find a support group for yourself. I think that a family counselor could also help you and your daughter understand ways that you could improve your interactions and communication with your husband -- unfortunately from what you have written, I think that you and/or your daughter would have to do this on your own, and I don't know whether you are able to afford to pay for such services right now. </p>

<p>It seems to me that the conflict is due to your husband's behavior - he sounds immature, unreasonable, and jealous -- and your daughter seems to be doing well. I think it is important for your d. to get her own license and car, but she seems to be on track with the goal of saving money to do just that. </p>

<p>Do discuss your financial issues with your daughter. It sounds like your daughter has done her part -- she earned a 50% merit scholarship and she is working to earn top grades -- but it would help for her to understand that it really is difficult for your family right now, and that she should act on the assumption that there is no MORE money beyond what already is committed. It sounds like your daughter is more mature in some ways than her father, so you may find it makes more sense to discuss these issues with her privately.</p>

<p>I think that your husband clearly has some self-esteem problems and his "accusations" really reflect his fears -- he probably sees both you and your daughter as becoming more educated and capable than he is, and really is afraid that you will both leave him. He also seems to be having a hard time coping with your daughter's growing up -- since you didn't give any particular reason to object to the boyfriend, I assume that is also jealousy more than any reasons to disapprove of the relationship. </p>

<p>So I think you need to work on finding new ways to talk to your husband that tend to be reassuring to him rather than simply increasing his fears and inadvertently provoking him. As for your daughter... unfortunately I think that the less time she spends living at home, the better -- simply because the tensions are pretty high, and her father doesn't seem ready to do the letting go part that needs to take place at this age. If your daughter will need to move home over the summer, sit down with her in advance to discuss household rules and expectations, including expected hours and chores -- not as a matter of reasserting parental control, but as a matter of courtesy and recognition that she is getting a benefit by not having to pay for rent and food. My daughter got a job her first summer after college and did not live at home -- she and her boyfriend rented a room together in the city, meaning they both had to work long hours and deal with paying the rent, preparing their own food, getting along with housemates, etc. That was a couple of years ago and I understand now that it was a rough time for them -- but it certainly was a good experience in growing up -- both of them are now more comfortable living at home with their respective parents, and are also much more respectful and courteous. I remember my d. complaining that summer that she was always stuck doing the dishes for everyone else..... I simply laughed and said, "now you know how I feel!" I also feel that my son became much more courteous and easy to live with after he had spent time living on his own and paying his own way -- I honestly don't think young people really understand all that goes into maintaining a household until they've tried doing it on their own for a few months.</p>

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<p>No, my husband didn't prevent her from learning to drive. We tried for over two years to get her to learn but she had every excuse under the sun to NOT learn how. We even had a vehicle for her to use. In her senior year, when it came time to make the decision of whether to live on campus and not drive, or live at home and drive - she made the choice herself. We sold the extra vehicle and then she pitched a fit about that because we "limited" her options. But, this past Christmas, four of her friends were given cars for Christmas presents and got their licenses (only one of her friends has ever had a license and frankly, I find that exceptionally odd for California kids). I think they may have made her feel neglected because we didn't give a car - I don't know - but suddenly she really wants one - but she didn't ask us for one - she said she wanted to work for it and pay for it herself.</p>

<p>He didn't keep her isolated, in fact, we didn't keep her from going anywhere she wanted to go over the break. All we asked was to be informed about what she was doing so that we would know when to expect her back.</p>

<p>He doesn't keep me isolated either. I work from home as a choice, the main reason was so that our children would never come home to an empty house because we were at work. I worked outside the home until about six years ago, but when I was laid off, we decided that our children could benefit from having a parent to come home to (instead of after school care or an empty house). That decision made it possible for me to complete my college degrees (it was hard to work full-time, take care of two children by myself, and study- which I reserved for after the kids were in bed), I was able to do volunteer work that I'd been wanting to do for a long time, and to actually see more of my husband. You see, he worked swing shift for over 20 years, so we would only really see each other on weekends. Being at home during the day, we got to see a whole lot more of each other.</p>

<p>I didn't mean to give the impression that he keeps us isolated, that just isn't really the right way to word it. I just have never been able to make friends and keep them. I live in kind of a weird community, if you weren't born and raised here - it's almost as if you don't exist. And, I wasn't born/raised here and I find it odd that it seems to be such a topic of conversation when I first meet new people (I grew up about 5 miles away is all). I, personally, love meeting people from other places. The relationships I do have are based on common interests and don't seem to involve more personal or close relations. Even my oldest, the one who is in college, wasn't born in this town and has felt since she started school that she was an outsider. Our youngest, who WAS born here - feels more connected. It is really weird! The most meaningful and long relationships I've had are with people online - but people and their lives change, so eventually there seems to be a parting of company. I've focused on growing my home business so much in the last two years that even my online relationships only seem to be about "business". I suppose I got myself into that situation without realizing it.</p>

<p>But anyway, we aren't prisoners in our own home, didn't mean to give that impression.</p>

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<p>I believe that it is human nature for your husband to feel somewhat insecure and defensive with your daughter given his upbringing, education and situation. Is it possible that deep down he may truly be afraid that your daughter is ashamed of him, and becomes defensive in response? The fact that he seems threatened and irritated by her being with others, despite the fact that the time spent at home is, to say the least, unpleasant , seems to me to suggest that there are deeper emotions at play. I agree with Youdon’tsay that your daughter is reacting to this, which while inappropriate, is understandable. If it is an issue of your husband feeling insecure, perhaps if your daughter (and your husband, if he is receptive) understood this they would have an easier time accepting each other’s behavior. Tell your husband that in time, if he celebrates and nutures her successes, one of her proudest memories will be that her father, who had to overcome so much and didn’t have the chance to go to university, sacrificed so much so that she would have those opportunities. He may not hear it now, but for sure in time he will.</p>

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<p>I see less of a problem with your daughter. She is doing what a normal college student is doing - studying, having fun, and having a boyfriend. Everything she did over the winter break was nothing out of ordinary, except for not telling you when she's coming home.</p>

<p>I would show your daughter some support, without bad mouthing dad, let her know you understand it's difficult for her. Until your husband gets the help he needs and starts to behave better I would encourage your daughter to stay away. I would not subject my daughter to that kind of verbal/mental abuse.</p>

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<p>I agree with the above posts- I have two girls 18 & 26, dad is an alcoholic ( in " recovery" supposedly however- he is what is called a " dry" alcoholic IMO) from a family of alcoholics.
Not so much fun.
However- can't change anyone else, particulary adults, only can change yourself.
I strongly agree with finding yourself, some support- in the form of a therapist/counselor.
You deserve it.</p>

<p>( I also would suggest- using writing as a way to communicate for all of you. Write things down you need to get out, write down what you want to say to your husband/daughter, instead of to their face. Writing is less stressful, because the angry face/voice isn't there pressuring
( even if you aren't angry- IMO, others can misinterpret expressions)</p>

<p>They can also take what is being said at their own pace- plus you can edit before hand to say exactly what you want- no more- no less.</p>

<p>Also include some positive affirmations in there as well- for yourself too!</p>

<p>I recommend books by Adele Faber & Elaine Mazlish
Welcome</a> to the Faber Mazlish Web</p>

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<p>MY TWO CENTS:
1) First, have your husband find something, just anything, that they have in common or can agree on. It could be they both like the house cat. Or they both like the color blue. Or something bigger, like they both think volunteer work is a valuable pursuit. Or they both like listeningt o Led Zeppelin or classical piano, whatever.
2) Then, have your husband chat about that subject -- just chat. Talk, No judgements or name-calling or disagreements allowed. Just converse.
3) Then, have your husband, during the course of the conversation, find something he really likes about your daughter. Like, hey, I really like that you are doing volunteer work. Or, hey, you look good in blue. Or, you know, I really enjoy talking with you, you're so interesting. Or just, you know what, you look cute sitting there next to the house cat.</p>

<p>This will improve communication. But there is another issue that may be part of the problem, too. Is your daughter encouraged to contribute to the household or the family in any way? If not -- decide on a way she can CONTRIBUTE that she can agree on. If could be as simple as, 'While you're home with Dad and Mom, you are to cook dinner for us 3x/week." Or, while you're here, you are expected to vacuum the carpets for us."</p>

<p>Furthermore, if she is 18 and working and paying half her way through college, she is certainly capable of paying all of it at this point -- particularly if she is unwilling to be civil at home. On the other hand, your husband has to stop being suspicious of her motives and start focusing on the more wonderful things he can admire about daughter -- of which there are apparently many. Bottom line: she is an adult. You are not obligated to keep helping pay for her education until her attitude shifts. Unfortunately, it'ls a two-way street and your huslband and daughter have to come to some agreements and stop the crap.</p>

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<p>It does sound like some counseling is in order. I do tend to agree with oldfort as well. </p>

<p>As far as not telling you what time she'll be home, you can remind her that it is just common courtesy for adults to let each other know when one might be home so that nobody worries. Good time to let her know how much you love her.</p>

<p>As far as the I am 18 and can be self sufficient thing...this is quite common. Here is what someone I know said to his son. There was no shouting. He calmly collected some bills. He called his son to the kitchen table. He said, "You are right. You are an adult at 18. Since we are all adults now and there are 4 of us in the family, you may begin to pay for 1/4 of the household bills." He pulled out electric, heating bill, some insurance bills, pointed out the grocery bill for 4, etc." He has never heard again about how at 18 his son is an adult and can do whatever he wants.</p>

<p>As far as other girls getting "more stuff", you can point out how there are always going to be those who will be wealthier, and point out those who are less well off than she is. You can point out how lucky she is to be able to attend a private school, and live on campus. You might show her the local community college as a reminder that not everyone can fly here and there at the drop of a hat. It might remind her about how much you really are giving her. I would let her know these things without any anger, but just presenting the facts calmly. She should know that not everyone can even afford a 4 year public college, or live away from home. Also, you do NOT need to try to keep up with the young ladies from the wealthy families. Remind her that there is a % of wealthy students, but not everyone falls into that group. You can show her how careful budgeting is what is allowing for her first class private education. I would let her know about setting priorities, and living within one's budget.</p>

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<p>Everyone's comments are really helping to feel much better. I'm not proud of these moments in life where I feel like I'm just wallowing in self-pity. I was raised (perhaps incorrectly) never to reveal when I just find myself not coping well. I'm glad I found this forum, it took me a couple of days to find a place where I felt I could let my hair down and just be "human". I know that having our kids go to college is a strain on everyone, I just never realized how much it would be for our family - but the problems go beyond just being about "college". And I am VERY thankful our daughter is such a great kid, overall, because I can't imagine what life would be like if we actually DID have a problematic child with regard to drugs or alcohol or bad grades or many of the other things that so many people have to deal with.</p>

<p>Someone mentioned the bf and it seemed like there were no issues, well there really aren't. He's a good student too (better than when they first met, she has encouraged him to be a better student). Beyond the usual quirky things with his own family he seems to be a pretty good kid (boy, did we luck out on that one). He is always polite to us, loves my cooking, and seems to really respect our daughter. In that department, she has exceeded what her father and I went through with our own first relationships with the opposite sex. He is her first boyfriend, they met when they were both seniors in high school. I think he may have only had one or two other previous girlfriends. I have no issues with the bf. I honestly think my husband may be a bit jealous of their relationship though, plus it's her first, so maybe other dads went through this when their girls were younger and he's just going through it now - at a time when so much is changing for all of us.</p>

<p>Thank you for extending a virtual hand to hold, shoulder to cry on, whatever you want to call it. I've been needing this for a while - just someone NOT involved to talk to about it. I know I've given plenty of advice to other people on other topics, and I know that I was only really able to do it because I was not involved in their problems. It's so much easier when you aren't in the middle of it all.</p>

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<p>I don't think the daughter has an issue with attitude. She's only reacting to her father - accusing her of wasting money, doing hanky-panky with the boyfriend (what a normal 18 year old would do). The father is dumping his unhappiness and insecurity onto his daughter. I am afraid this bad cycle is going to continue if the daughter doesn't stay away and the parents don't get any help.</p>

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<p>I've only read the first page ( I have to go to work!), but I say don't worry about those two right now. They are adults ( but I must say, although it depends on where you live, D not driving seems kind of like strange trap for you). If you can afford it, get an individual therapist. If it's more affordable, consider a group, maybe ACOA. If not, make it a goal to develop some adult friends and interests.</p>

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<p>Hello ellenfix1:</p>

<p>Thank you for your posting. She doesn't have enough money to pay half, let alone all, of her way through college. It's a goal of hers to pick up the tab for what we are paying now - but it's a long term goal and may exceed the time it actually takes her to get through the college. If she gets to where she can earn enough to meet some of the goals she has, she fully intends on paying for those goals. But, the work/study thing didn't meet any of our expectations. She's doing what she can to rectify that, in fact, just last night she wrote and told me that for now she has two jobs. I think that when she told me of her goals, it was better that I encourage her to shoot for those goals - but not beat herself up if they ended up being to high of goals than just shoot her down and tell her she'll never make it happen. Believe me, she said that if she could pay for it all she would - and I believe her. But even if she didn't spend a dime on herself, the work/study program would not have covered her school expenses.</p>

<p>Thank you, I appreciate all input.</p>

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<p>I think Oldfort and Calmom nailed it. Reread those posts and seriously consider how to support your daughter, she's done nothing wrong except maybe falling down on respect momentarily when she returned home--something every healthy college student does.</p>

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<p>I think that kids on home from break are so anxious to see friends that they forgot to include spending time home with their parents as part of their schedule. I think that it makes sense to actually schedule stuff with your parents (a dinner out, for example) while on break.</p>

<br>


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<p>This same problem came up on another thread and someone said that she told her son that his father is an adult, yet as a courtesy, he lets her know when he expects to be home and will call if he will be late. If she wants to be an adult, she should abide by courtesies adults extend to each other. </p>

<p>I feel for you...your husband really needs to see a counselor, for a lot of reasons that you've mentioned. As for coming home for spring break, I'd try to minimize the actual days D spends at home. Sounds like an explosive situation for both you and her.</p>

<p>As for your D, she has to realize that if her dad pulls the financial rug out from under her, she's in a world of hurt when it comes to college. It would be to her advantage to remember that when she wants to spout off about what an adult she is. You're not a real adult until you can pay your own way.</p>

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<p>There are many issues here- your DD is behaving both normally and rudely in not wanting to let you know what is going on. Any guest would let me know whether they would be here for dinner or approximately when to expect them. That has nothing to do with being your DD, but is about being a guest in your home. Try to present that aspect with no emotion or judgment attached.</p>

<p>It is also normal to see other kids at school with daddy's credit card. My DD has friends from HS who live in a big expensive city in nice apartments funded by their family. My DD lives in a little crummy room in her grad school town- but she pays for it and is proud of it. Point out that it is good for your DD to see all the different life choices people make, to know those possibilities are out there, but that does not mean your family can afford that! Tell her you too wish you had more, but you don't, so deal with it!</p>

<p>It sounds like her dad is scared- I agree counseling could be helpful if he is open to it. It sounds like he is scared that all you have done will not pan out- his comments and reactions sound like he is looking at the worst case & Dad's can do that to the point of being ridiculous (not that one should not worry, but that their kids are nnot on that track)- what if she leaves me, what if she gets arrested/pregnant/drops out/does drugs/etc.</p>

<p>It's like a panic attack about whether his parenting was good enough. You have done your best for 18 years, now it is her time to try things and she will make some mistakes, but hopefully in the end she will lead a good life. He needs to let go a bit of the control, just relax and know that it is her time to make choices not his.</p>

<p>I would recommend NOT tying the college money behaviours, just set a GPA guideline- as long as DD is successful with XYZ GPA you will fund a certain amount.</p>

<p>Try to come up with a rubric you can go back to in each emotional decision making situation and use that rubric to clear away the emotions and make a consistent decision whilst she is running your emotions up and down a roller coaster ;)</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I think he might need counseling

[/quote]

You think? Sorry, don't mean to be glib, but YES he needs some counseling. He's been under stress for a couple of years now, his family background is to stew over things and not discuss them, and that's just a lousy combination. I also worry about his health, along with yours. So yes, he does need counseling but unfortunately you probably can't force him to go. So you have to go. You have to take care of yourself and learn how to handle this stress being dumped on you as best you can. Best of luck.</p>

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<p>Hello ellemenope:</p>

<p>Yes, I think she kinda forget to schedule time with us, and we did too....until it was too late! I didn't know that she was hiding in her room playing the Sims game most of the day being bored, when she wasn't out with her friends...I was ASSUMING she was either sleeping or didn't want to be bothered (my fault for not asking her). She said she thought she was supposed to stay out of my (our) way.</p>

<p>So that part of it was a learning moment, and clearly a total lack of communication. Her dad was saying last night how she didn't "lift a finger" to help out around the house....and I said, "well, you know, I never asked her!" Besides, thinking back to when I was that age....it really took me a long time to realize that I would have to be proactive in offering help. I mean, I was used to being the "kid" and to stay out of the adult's way....so even though I was on my own and had a few "adult" friends, it didn't dawn on me to offer to help wash dishes, set the table or anything else. It was finally a revelation to me when I was almost 20, and the bf I had at the time said that even though we'd been spending every Sunday watching football games at his friend's houses, that I was no longer invited because the other guy's girlfriends didn't like me because I never helped out. Wow, was that a shocker! It had never occurred to me that they viewed me as a slacker and that I expected to be waited on. They were only a year or two older, and viewed me this way. So, I fixed the problem by hosting one of the games at my apartment, and doing all the work. It was really hard, but the other girls pitched in to help me when they saw me trying so hard. I apologized to all of them about having been so dense, to not realize that I was expected to help feed the crowd and keep things clean. I told them that it just hadn't occurred to me to help. They forgave me, and said that they were happy that was the case - they really didn't like thinking I was a snob.</p>

<p>My daughter kept the room she stayed in neat as a pin while she was here (a lot better than when she lived here). She always brought her dirty dishes and empty cups into the kitchen, and picked up after herself in the bathroom. She picked up after her friends (though they didn't really make a mess or anything like that). She did her own laundry. But, she is a lot like me....so it may never have occurred to her that I would have loved the company if she would have helped me do other things - or even just talk with me while I did them. I really can't hold it to much against her because I never asked for her help.</p>

<p>Even my husband agreed that since I never asked for her help, I shouldn't have expected it. So, at least on that topic, it's become a non-issue for now. I'll make my expectations known to her next time she stays.</p>

<p>Overall, she is a good kid. And, he's a good husband. That's why I think this situation can be resolved. It's just that we need to find the sticking points and work through them.</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

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<p>Oh FannyPack, I feel for you! You do have a good kid; and I suspect your husband would take the counseling suggestion the wrong way (he sounds a bit insecure, and would take it to mean you are sick of him?!) But perhaps your daughter would be amenable to a talk with you as to how he his having a rough time right now, and she may have to pick up the slack (this time!) and work on her relationship with him. It can't hurt, and sometimes even the best children can be a little self centered, and not see when a parent is insecure/unhappy. Best of luck to you.....</p>

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<p>There are so many good suggestions here and I just want to add one: do what you can to cultivate some friends. Go out of your way to invite another person for coffee (or another couple to dinner or to watch a game) once a week, find some activities and make a point to try to invite one person from each out for coffee, etc. And don't turn your new friendships into counseling sessions. I think your husband's behavior is very difficult (sounds almost paranoid to me) and you need more adult interaction-- he might also.</p>

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<p>Fannypack: I completely understand where you are coming from. My oldest D and my H have gone at it for years. She is now a freshman in college as well and sounds similar to your D. I too have had to bridge the gap between them for all of their lives. They've gone at each other since she was a little girl. In many ways, it's because they are so similar in personality. They are both demanding and both stand up for themselves. My H came from a family of divorce and his father was an alcoholic. His father left when he was ten. I think my husband is not sure how to parent her (an academic and successful kid) and sometimes is intimidated by her and tries to irrationally control her as a result. Recently, things have improved. I spent a lot of time talking to my D about how to avoid conflict and how to show appreciation for everything her dad does for her (mostly financial). The risk that he would pull his financial support is too big. Your D will confront difficult people her whole life, and to learn to deal with her first difficult person will help her in the future. My D now understands that she needs to greet her dad enthusiastically when she's home, not antagonize him by doing the things that she knows annoy him (leaving dishes around, leaving her belongings near the door, leaving things in the car .. I could go on and on). When she does the few things that make him happy, he's much easier to get along with. I told my D before she went back to school basically what someone said above...everything we do for you is a gift and what we expect in return is kind and respectful communication. She completely understood. My relationship with my D has never been stronger, and her relationship with my H is improving. I'm hoping we are on the right path. In the meanwhile, I try and repeat to my H different news items that might make him see her in a positive light. Yes, I'm stressed out about it and it takes a lot of work on my part but the reward is that they are getting along better.</p>

<p>I too made the choice to work from home for the same reasons. Over the years it has become isolating. As my children get older, I find them more enjoyable to be with and I try really hard to meet an old friend for lunch every month or so. Sometimes it will be new friends, or friends I've met through children. I joined a book club through the library and do my best to be social one day a month. It doesnt always happen, but it does help.</p>