<p>"But we want to make sure that when we deliver the decisions electronically, it will be done right technologically, and this year we do not have the assurance that we can do that."</p>
<p>My charming son had the following comment:
"is this woman serious?
its MIT for _____ sake
and you cant release decisions on a computer?"</p>
<p>"Sorry Xiggi... the schools already do this and the parents and kids ignore the evidence and information." </p>
<p>"MIT is pretty transparent about what it takes to succeed there, and why would they admit kids to what is after all a university if the kid doesn't like to read? Get real!"</p>
<p>Blossom, I am happy for you if you believe that the schools already do "this." I do not disagree that MIT is transparent in their disclosure of "what it takes to succeed" but I could not disagree more about the transparency of their admission criteria or the "what it takes to get admitted."</p>
<p>My point of contention is that MIT and similarly selective schools do NOT discourage students to continue to seek the elusive Holy Grail of admission and DO reward the students who, by choice or pressure, push themselves to the verge of exhaustion through the extra mile of the admission marathon and crawl the last yards. It is one thing to write well-meaning essays and it is another to parlay the message into admission's changes. And I am sorry to say this, but there is NO evidence whatsoever of this happening. And if it DID happen, why not document it? </p>
<p>In addition, allow me to repeat that it would darn easy to implement measures to help students regain their summers ... stop asking what they did during them! Is that so complicated? In my view, school should start in September and end in May and summer should be reserved for exploration or mere relaxation. But, is that the message sent by the schools -except for the essays? Hell, no! Same thing for the explosion of AP or advanced classes. The ONLY way to see some limitations imposed to the combined madness of schools and The College Board is to DRASTICALLY curb its use for admission purposes and impose realistic limitations to the credits. The AP program was NOT meant to separate students in the admission pool, but that has become its predominant use. </p>
<p>Now, go ahead nd tell any high schoolers who has Ivy League ambitions that he or she should not worry about AP before HS even starts ...</p>
<p>Lastly, as far as the comment "I see no evidence except here in the minds of the conspiracy theorists that the elite colleges "reward the students who do the most" in Xiggi's words. Quite the contrary." Could you please point to the EVIDENCE that this "contrary" does indeed happen with some regularity? In the meantime, I offer the results of admissions and students files on this precise board as Exhibit A.</p>
<p>Xiggi, you wrote...</p>
<p>"In addition, allow me to repeat that it would darn easy to implement measures to help students regain their summers ... stop asking what they did during them! Is that so complicated? In my view, school should start in September and end in May and summer should be reserved for exploaration or mere relaxation. But, is that the message sent by the schools -except for the essays? Hell, no! Same thing for the explosion of AP or advanced classes. The ONLY way to see some limitations imposed onto the combined madness of schools and The College Board is to DRASTICALLY curb its use for admission purposes and impose realistic limitations of the credits. The AP program was NOT meant to separate students in the admission pool, but that has become its predominant use."</p>
<p>I would like to see Marilee's response to this.</p>
<p>I am too lazy to figure out how to retrieve this, but actually Marilee spoke out about just this very thing a year or two ago, that kids are relentlessly piling on activitiy after activity instead of doing what they want to do. My son, a current MITer, didn't do any academic stuff during the summers. I am sure that piling on makes some kids competitive for MIT, but in my son's case, his ECs were few. Mostly just one, pursued since sixth grade. </p>
<p>I'm not convinced that MIT (and HYPS) are always the best places for students. Yes, there are great opportunities; on the other hand, my son works very, very hard, and gets half Bs (everything is graded on the curve). I see high school classmates of his who go to less competitive schools who are stars. They probably get excellent opportunities from that status.</p>
<p>In response to the AP talk, I will drop a link here to Ben Jones's classic response in the "Whoever has the most APs wins" thread of a couple months ago. I still find one of his paragraphs important:
[quote]
Quite simply, the students who are happiest here are those who thrive on challenge. Most of our admits have taken AP math and science because they would have been bored silly in the regular classes. Indeed, they genuinely wanted to take those classes. They don't look at MIT as the prize; they look at MIT as the logical next step. It's an important distinction.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>xiggi, years ago our high school district held a firm stance on AP classes: they felt that the AP designation should be reserved for truly rigorous, college level courses. And as such, they felt that such courses should be reserved for juniors and seniors. They also felt that all core academic classes should be "rigorous" and that adding a new level of rigor called "honors" was unnecessary for the first two years of high school, with the exception of mathematics. Finally, AP classes offered to juniors and seniors were limited -- the district did not offer enough sections to allow students to take more than 2 or 3 at a time. So nobody was graduating with 15 AP's and 12 honors classes.</p>
<p>And then the parents got involved. To make a long story short, a very powerful and organized group of parents--bouyed by the local parent-run education fundraising organization--put pressure on the district by bringing in representatives of University of California admissions (the system as well as several officers from individual UC campuses) to have them speak to the "community" (read: school board) on UC admissions. And very specifically the head of the UC system's admissions office stated that they "like to see" (read: you better do it) "17 semesters of AP" by graduation. That year, the school board voted to open up many more AP classes and now, to remain competitive in context, the kids have 4 and 5 AP classes on their schedules. </p>
<p>And then, the University of California moved from their partial or fully (depending on campus) numbers-driven admissions forumula to "comprehensive review" where admissions "points" are given for "significant" accomplishments, awards, EC's etc.--but where "significant" is never clearly defined so it is interpreted as "as much as your mind and body can possibly endure." </p>
<p>The result has not been pretty for the kids but the University of California can boast year after year that this year's admitted class is truly the brightest, most accomplished class yet. Nobody asks if it's healthy, if it's necessary, or if what comes out the other end is qualitatively different from 10 years ago.</p>
<p>In the end, it wouldn't matter to California kids whether MIT or Harvard or Stanford set limits to AP's or made their admissions process less opaque, because the vast majoriy of California kids hoping to get into HPYS also have UC schools on their list and whatever the UC system wants out of these kids, the UC system will get. And if California kids are taking 14 AP classes and killing themselves with EC's to impress UC admissions, everyone else will have to as well, because they are all applying to the same HPYS schools. Which is another thread altogether.</p>
<p>re the summers - I am sure there are kids who do the expensive summer service program for the sole purpose of beefing up their college resumes. But for many super-smart kids, summer is their only opportunity to really challenge themselves in their areas of interest and be around other very smart kids by attending high quality, selective summer programs. Kids don't do the best programs to look good to colleges, they do it because they are passionate about the subject and enjoy the experience. They may feel that they learn more and have a more intellectually stimulating time during 5 weeks of Mathcamp, or music camp, or drama camp, or PROMYS, or RSI, or CTY than they do during the entire school year. They would choose to participate in these programs even if they were forbidden to tell colleges what they did during the summer.</p>
<p>Now, why shouldn't colleges be able to consider that this is the sort of thing a student enjoys doing with their free time, if that is in fact the case? Does a kid who would genuinely prefer to spend the summer doing math equations have to be coy about that out of "fairness" to the kid who prefers to spend the summer at the beach? If summer programs are as integral a part of who a student is as their ECs and course choices during the school year, than that info *should*be part of their app! And let's give college admissions officers some credit. Don't you think they can tell the difference btwn a student who attends a math camp every summer starting in 6th grade, while maxing out their school's math curriculum during the school year, from a student who suddenly "wants" to build latrines in Latin America the summer before they apply to colleges?</p>
<p>And let's be honest about our kids. If my child would rather spend the summer lounging at the beach than doing something academic, is a high-powered academic college really the best choice for him/her? Will s/he really be happy surrounded by other kids who live and breathe their intellectual passions 12 months a year? Will forcing the other kids to "hide" their activities for a quarter of the year so that my child can compete really do my child any favors?</p>
<p>Mootmom - Thanks for the Ben Jones's response. My kid is on a science track at an elite school. I don't know that spending 30 hours a week doing a 'problem set' is right for every kid but it is for her. Parents would do well to heed Ben Jones's advice. I wouldn't force or encourage a kid to undertake that track. Parents trying to game the system should relax.</p>
<p>Texas--there is a huge gap between academic programs and "lounging at the beach". Both my kids would've rather had fingernails pulled than go to math camp, or any other academic summer program, but that doesn't mean they weren't capable of competing with the big boys. One graduated Phi Beta Kappa in the top ten percent from a top ten LAC; the other is averaging 3.6 (and Deans list) at an Ivy.</p>
<p>We believe in our house that recreational reading, being with friends, daydreaming, and in general, down time, are just as important to developing one's mind as accelerated coursework. I don't denigrate the latter; I am just suggesting that the former does not bespeak of a lazy intellect or an inability to keep up, much less excel.</p>
<p>"My wish for the Admissions process would be a way for kids to truly be able to identify THEIR top school choices....kids today are lobbing apps in everywhere....raising the overall number that need to be considered. Early decision shuts out financial considerations... early action is a start...but some sort of system for the RD cycle that would let hs kids identify their top schools in a similiar manner that medical school applicants have."</p>
<p>maineparent, medical school applicants and residency and fellowship applicants STILL lob apps everywhere (at least initially). I just finished letters of rec for 2 of our residents who are applying for fellowships through the ERAS match. One application, one essay, letters of rec all sent to a central service. Then on a certain day at a certain time, the whole app is distributed to all of the programs on the resident's list simultaneously. Each of these residents applied to 25 to 30 fellowship programs! Then they wait for interview requests and interview only at the programs that interest them. AFTER interviews, they rank the programs (as many or as few as they wish to rank, but no tie ranks are permitted). Then the programs rank their interviewees. Then match begins.</p>
<p>I do think this kind of ranking might also work for colleges, but I don't think it will cut down on the number of applications that each student submits. In fact, they will increase because of the ease of the process.</p>
<p>wow! Her daughter is Nora Jones! </p>
<p>A few other things surprised me. Doesn't she seem naive that she had no idea that
[quote]
only 5 of the 94 seniors in her (daughter's) class were not applying early anywhere.
[/quote]
?</p>
<p>And she insists that all these kids applying ED is driven by "the nearly unbearable pressure to get it over with." I think most kids feel they need the extra edge (whther it is real or not) given to ED applicants to get accepted to a top school. Their school list is not just "reach/match/safety" but super-reach(impossible)/ reach(possibly tipped by ED)/ match(My life is over) / safety(no way). Getting it all over with is merely a fringe benefit, not the driving force. </p>
<p>And then, this:
[quote]
as a pragmatic dean, I know that she will probably get some rejections because of the laws of probability.
[/quote]
What does probability have to do with it? Are they really flipping coins in there after all? If your mom is MIT dean of admissions, isn't that a hook?</p>
<p>A couple more things I didn't understand:</p>
<p>
[quote]
you guys love pouring it all out to the universe on blogs while my generation fears that Big Brother is watching
[/quote]
But she just "poured it all out" herself, including probably too much info about her own daughter.</p>
<p>and
[quote]
the public rejection of checking decisions on line in front of others is much more hurtful than finding out in your own time in private under your own control
[/quote]
I am really missing something here. Most kids can find a private spot with a computer, if not in their own bedroom than certainly at home somewhere. I don't see how it is any better to have your mother running around the house (or showing up at school!) waving an envelope screaming, "It's here! it's here!" What I am saying is, kids today have a lot more control over their email than their US mail.</p>
<p>The singer is Norah Jones.</p>
<p>Maineparent, you are thinking of the Residency Match, which, as Quiltguru says, doesn't necessarily cut down on the number of applications, but does allow for ranking by the applicants - a sort of EA for everybody.</p>
<p>I wonder where Dean Jones' daughter is applying? It would make you feel ill to sit in the parents' meeting and hear that 95% of the seniors were applying early, and your child wasn't - even the most knowledgeable of people has some qualms about bucking the "common wisdom". On the other hand, I'm sure that would be a flagged application.</p>
<p>Gsrland - my son would rather have his fingernails pulled than attend a creative writing camp. But then he's never pretended to have any interest in creative writing. If in a moment of insanity he had applied to any LACs for the purpose of being an English major, I certainly hope their admissions office would have seen 5 years of math camp (among other things) and had the good sense to reject him. If your kids would have preferred to have their fingernails pulled than attend math camp, that obviously did not get in the way of their academic success. But do you really think they would have been happy if, say, MIT had accepted them to be math majors? If a summer math camp is getting your fingernails pulled, than majoring in math at MIT is spending 4 years on the rack. Would MIT be doing such a student a good turn if they admitted them?</p>
<p>What you choose to do or not do during your summers has a lot to say about your interests and passions. Sure, reading and interacting with friends is valuable. So is working at McDonalds to help support one's family (or just to experience working). Kids who do those things should say so on their college apps, just like the kids who spend the summer at math camp. How the college takes that information is going to be different if a kid is applying to MIT to be a math major than if a kid is applying to St. Johns as a literature major. But isn't it best for all concerned if colleges have all the information about students that they can get, including how they choose to spend their free time?</p>
<p>Texas137, whatever happened to the idea of free time? What ever happened to the concept of a kid just being a kid? There is plenty of time to work on problem sets, study foreign languages, work, save the world. There isn't plenty of time being a kid. Whatever happened to play?</p>
<p>As a whole, our generation has not let kids be kids. My guess is we are going to hear about it when our kids are older and have kids of their own.</p>
<p>For a "math kid", a 15 hour problem set is their idea of fun, and is how they choose to spend their free time. School gets in the way of what they truly enjoy doing, which is math. So it's more likely to come out during the summer. Math = play for these kids. I'm sure it is different for other kids. But then, isn't knowing which kind of kid an applicant is part of matching them to the best college?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Whatever happened to play?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>For some kids, math is play! And the kind of kid who finds math to be play is likely to be a happier kid at MIT than a kid whose idea of play does not include math.</p>
<p>Which is not to say that summers at places like MathCamp are all kids all playing with math 100% of the time....MathCamp in particular seems to do a wonderful job of integrating many other things....like frisbee and skits and scavenger hunts and outdoor adventures and just hanging out with kindred spirits. That camp offers lots of choices and an extraordinary amount of freedom for kids to do whatever the spirit moves them to do at any given time. And if their spirit moves them to do math, at any given hour of the day or night, they can always find someone else to share the joy of math with them. Most kids don't have the opportunity to make that kind of connection during the academic year.</p>
<p>My son likes to spend most of his summer free time at academic programs surrounded by kids who also like to spend their summers this way. During the school year he studies, plays video games, plays rec league sports, reads, goofs around with his friends, does science competitions, volunteers, watches pro football, and talks to his summer camp friends online. This is his way of being a kid.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If your kids would have preferred to have their fingernails pulled than attend math camp, that obviously did not get in the way of their academic success. But do you really think they would have been happy if, say, MIT had accepted them to be math majors?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>S would have preferred to have fingernails pulled than attend math camp. Nonetheless, his BS from Stanford was in Mathematical & Computational Science, and his MS was in Financial Mathematics, he is now working as a quantitative analyst, and planning to begin a Ph.D. program in math in 2007. </p>
<p>Still, he didn't apply to MIT or CalTech, he applied to Stanford. He had an idea at the time that there would be a lot of math camp kids at MIT and CalTech and so he didn't feel he belonged there. So maybe it does all work out in the end. </p>
<p>I think we need to keep in mind that different kids have different levels of interest and tolerance for adult-directed group activities. Some are more solitary and independent and the 9 months they get during the school year is enough for them, but that doesn't mean that their interest in a subject is less intense than someone who enjoys lots of group activities. There is a place in the world for all types, they all have something to contribute.</p>
<p>1down - so what kinds of things did your son choose to do during his high school summers? Were they just as indicative of a good match for math/CS at Stanford as math camp might be for eventual math majors at MIT?</p>
<p>I think that what each of us chooses to do with our free time, says something revealing about us. Everyone here chooses to spend some free time (sometimes a LOT of free time) on CC. I believe that gives us commonalities as parents that might not apply to a group of parents who would rather have fingernails pulled than hang out on a college admissions discussion board. Wouldn't that be useful info if someone was trying to get to know us?</p>
<p>1down - good point about structure. I think that knowing whether or not someone chooses unstructured vs structured, and group vs solitary activities is also useful. It all gets back to getting to know someone by looking at the choices they make when they have a choice. Which for many kids, is more likely to occur during the summer than during the school year.</p>