But at well-resourced research universities with similar students and similar proportion of students majoring in CS (e.g. Caltech/MIT/Stanford), CS courses aren’t rationed or prioritized by seniority or major.
A 20-year old report is not a valid reference point to discuss an admissions landscape that has changed so dramatically (with admissions becoming more difficult every year). Admissions these days are primarily about maximizing the probability of admissions for the price range/major of interest, and then once admitted making choices according to fit. I don’t buy that anyone is applying prospectively to colleges with “great teaching” mainly based on that specific criteria. They might consider such nebulous factors to either justify/make peace/discriminate closer to the commit date.
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You haven’t offered any data or citations that would indicate why/how college type preferences for children of university faculty members would have changed. Admissions to selective LACs and selective research universities have both gotten more difficult.
It’s a bit ironic that on this thread of all places, posters seem to want to dismiss out-of-hand a thorough academic study conducted by professors at highly-ranked research university. [shrug]
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They may not term it that way, but I think this happens a lot, especially for those who are not financially constrained. For example in CA it is fairly commonplace for high performing students to forgo UCLA, Berkeley and other UCs because, even though these institutions are considered excellent, students don’t want to be stuck in in huge lectures or be taught primarily by teaching assistants (whether accurate or not, that is the perception.). These students often look to LACs or other top research institutions that offer (or at least claim to offer) a liberal arts approach to undergraduate education. (Princeton and Harvard are examples of research institutions which claim to offer a liberal arts education.)
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Liberal arts subjects are offered widely, even at universities with a more preprofessional emphasis (e.g. CSUs, Northeastern, UPenn).
Students choosing Harvard or Princeton over UCs are likely doing so for prestige or a luxury class experience, not for small introductory level classes or avoiding TAs. The argument would work better for students choosing UMN Morris, Truman State, or Sonoma State.
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At Princeton you do avoid TAs teaching the lecture probably completely, and if you test or place out of introductory classes (which you often do), then the large classes are very very few in the 40 or so classes you take over your entire 4 years. And a large class in this context is probably a 100 sized class.
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I believe you are mistaken. Those are sections of the same class. Last year there was only one Ch 1a main class (*Lewis, N; MT 11:00-11:55 Lecture Hall; PASS-FAIL) with multiple sections split up from there. http://schedules.caltech.edu/FA2022-23.html#dept_details_CHEMISTRY
Likewise for Ph1a (Cheung, C; WF 11:00 - 11:55; 201 BRG; PASS-FAIL). http://schedules.caltech.edu/FA2022-23.html#dept_details_PHYSICS.
Part of what you call a “luxury class experience” is not having to attend 700 people lectures, or at least that is the perception. YRMV
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TA’s don’t run the lecture at the UC;s. either, just the labs/discussion sections
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We have/had kids in large classes and small classes, and the experience is far apart. If the main class has 400 kids, then the TA becomes the defacto main teacher with a 25 or 30 student precept. I don’t know how many kids even show up at the main lecture.
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Regarding Princeton…
Probably depends on the major. For economics majors, current state of enrollment (pre-frosh probably have not registered yet):
| Course | Enrolled / Max | Description |
|---|---|---|
| ECO 100 | 76 / 325 | Introduction to Microeconomics |
| ECO 101 | 65 / 250 | Introduction to Macroeconomics |
| ECO 202 | 165 / 165 | Statistics and Data Analysis for Economics |
| ECO 300 | 119 / 150 | Microeconomic Theory |
| ECO 302 | 99 / 150 | Econometrics |
| ECO 310 | 80 / 170 | Microeconomic Theory: A Mathematical Approach |
| ECO 312 | 54 / 120 | Econometrics: A Mathematical Approach |
| ECO 362 | 161 / 220 | Financial Investments |
For computer science majors:
| Course | Enrolled / Max | Description |
|---|---|---|
| COS 126 / EGR 126 | 79 / 420 | Computer Science: An Interdisciplinary Approach |
| COS 217 | 187 / 210 | Introduction to Programming Systems |
| COS 226 | 209 / 245 | Algorithms and Data Structures |
| COS 240 | 146 / 147 | Reasoning About Computation |
| COS 316 | 139 / 160 | Principles of Computer System Design |
| COS 324 | 149 / 150 | Introduction to Machine Learning |
| COS 333 | 75 / 140 | Advanced Programming Techniques |
| COS 350 | 116 / 150 | Ethics of Computing |
| COS 375 / ECE 375 | 115 / 150 | Computer Architecture and Organization |
| COS 426 | 100 / 95 | Computer Graphics |
| COS 436 | 73 / 100 | Human Computer Interaction |
| COS 448 / EGR 448 | 89 / 160 | Innovating Across Technology, Business, and Marketplaces |
| COS 487 / MAT 487 | 19 / 100 | Theory of Computation |
On the other hand, in some departments, like classics and philosophy, all classes except perhaps a handful of classes with a lot of general interest, are on the smaller side.
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The numbers I have heard are different than what you have here. I have never heard of a 245 sized class in COS. I don’t know the COS 126 situation. The COS 226 class for instance, had 120 or so in the first semester I think, when my son took it. And one of the 25 sized precepts in that class was taught by a famous guy in the field – turing medal winning Prof, and more famous than the main lecturer. It is possible that there are two sections. I have heard of a lot of upper level classes sized 20-25. There is room for one-on-one research with a prof for several semesters, taken as a class – so a class of size 1. etc.
It is also possible that this is the size at which the classes start out, as kids are shopping, and the final size is smaller when the add-drop period ends.
The reason that I am skeptical about the 245 situation is that a) COS 226 is not usually taken by non majors. The non major course is 126. and b) I think the batch peaked at around 200 CS declarations for the class that graduated this year, and the one graduating next year, and I think the class that just declared CS (current rising juniors) actually fell in size – more like 175-200.
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Classics has 12 profs for a batch of 7-8 students.
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What is being dismissed out-of-hand?
Indeed, the paper in question does say that it was testing whether higher education insiders made different choices compared to the general public, and found that to be the case. One possibility is that they are more likely to know that LACs exist in the first place.
Indeed, while the paper found that research university faculty sent their kids to LACs at a greater rate than the general public (matched for income and education levels), they also sent their kids to research universities at a greater rate than the general public. So it is less of a matter of favoring LACs over research universities, but favoring research universities and LACs over various other kinds of colleges.
From Table 11 (boldface are higher compared to general public):
| Students’ Carnegie Classification | Parents High Education & Income | Parents Research University | Parents LAC |
|---|---|---|---|
| Research extensive | 43.1% | 50.6% | 31.7% |
| Doctoral | 8.1% | 6.3% | 6.3% |
| Master’s I | 11.5% | 11.5% | 7.0% |
| Master’s II | 2.1% | 1.2% | 1.4% |
| Liberal Arts | 18.8% | 23.0% | 43.7% |
| BA General | 4.9% | 1.5% | 3.2% |
| Associate | 9.3% | 3.2% | 2.8% |
| Other | 2.3% | 2.6% | 3.9% |
| Total | 100.0% | 100.0% | 100.0% |
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What is “a batch”? 7-8 students total, overall four years, majoring in Classics? Or per class year? Keep in mind that students take electives and cross-listed classes, so professors serve students outside their majors, plus graduate students. History, literature, art, archaeology, philosophy, and language students are all likely to take classics courses, as well as others who simply have a passing interest.
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7-8 undergrad students in the major per year. That is a small number however you cut it. I am sure there are non majors taking classes as well, but entry requirements are often fluency in Latin or fluency in Greek, and therefore the numbers are likely to be very small. I doubt they have a large grad contingent if this is the size of the undergrad major.
It seems that you glossed over the finer points of the data analysis:
For example, from the report: “The child of a Research university faculty member is 20 percent more likely to enter a Research university and 64 percent more likely to enter a selective Liberal Arts college than a child from an average non-academic family in the top income group.”
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They probably don’t have a large graduate contingent, but no university does in Classics. I doubt all of the courses require language fluency, and the ones that don’t probably appeal to non-majors. But between the majors, the undergrads, and the interested students outside the major, and the graduate students in Classics and Classics-adjacent departments, AND the fact that professors don’t teach more than four courses per year, I’m sure Princeton sees value in keeping the program.
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Presumably, you are referring to Table 5, where the comparison group is high income parents, but not controlled for parent education. When comparing against general public parents with high income and high education in Table 11, the research university parents were 17% more likely to send their kids to research universities and 22% more likely to send their kids to LACs.
That may be more due to parents not as highly educated are even less likely than highly educated parents not working in higher education to be aware of LACs.
I never said they don’t see value in the program.