Witt, UA cannot defend systemic segregation

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Alabama
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<p>From the Crimson White’s Editorial Board, today:</p>

<p>[Our</a> View: Witt, UA cannot defend systemic segregation | The Crimson White](<a href=“http://cw.ua.edu/2011/09/19/our-view-witt-ua-cannot-defend-systemic-segregation/]Our”>http://cw.ua.edu/2011/09/19/our-view-witt-ua-cannot-defend-systemic-segregation/)</p>

<p>“As students of The University of Alabama, we were both saddened and embarrassed last week when President Witt defended segregation in the greek community.
“It is appropriate that all our sororities and fraternities – traditionally African-American, traditionally white and multicultural – determine their membership,” Witt said. Effectively, he said that it is acceptable for organizations who build houses on University land, in some cases with University bonds, to continue to disqualify certain students from membership because of their race.
Obviously, that is not appropriate…”</p>

<p>Daaaamn. This is the first time I’ve seen an attack of this level levied against Dr. Witt- the article has come up in conversation literally dozens of times today, and Greeks and non-Greeks I’ve talked to have roughly the same opinion- Dr. Witt took a beating today.</p>

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<p>After all the good he has done for UA, Dr. Witt slipped up in this case. I hope he reconsiders his statements.</p>

<p>This all reminds me of when Bob Jones University came under fire for its policy banning interracial dating. No, I am not putting UA in the same league as BJU, believe me. But I happened to follow the BJU case because a good friend of mine is a graduate of BJU. (He is one of the nicest, sweetest, smartest guys I’ve ever known. He and his wife are also the only BJU grads I’ve ever known, and I can’t extrapolate from such a small sample, but they certainly have made a positive impression on me.) </p>

<p>But anyway, during the 2004 presidential election (IIRC) BJU was getting it on all sides because of its racist policies – which, of course, they kept feebly defending. (I think the subject hit the news because one of the presidential candidates spoke at BJU…forget which one.) Finally, though, BJU buckled and recsended the anti-interracial-dating rule. Coincidentally enough (I remember this vividly), the BJU admin announced their change of policy the same day St. Katherine Drexel was canonized. (She was the 19th-century foundress of boo-koo schools serving African American and native American kids. I relished the irony there. Score one for Saint Katherine.)</p>

<p>Anyway, I know Dr. Witt should not be mentioned in the same breath as the Bob Jones admin. The parallel cannot be pressed too far. But, just as the bad publicity came back and bit BJU in the butt – forcing a change in policy – so I think that this segregated-sorority thing is going to come back to haunt UA. It’s a relic of Jim Crow, and it has no place in a modern, vibrant, growing, progressive university.</p>

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<p>Oh great…another of these threads. </p>

<p>I don’t think this means what some are implying. I think it just means that Dr. Witt doesn’t think that some groups (be it Muslim, Jewish, Frats, Christian, etc) should be forced to accept other members. I don’t think Dr. Witt supports segregation and the ugliness that word implies.</p>

<p>I think it’s just a “can of worms” that is more complicated than what some may think. Does anyone really think that the Black Greeks would joyfully accept non-AAs into their orgns if pressured? No. Their concern would be that they would soon become the minority and any ethnic influences would be lost. </p>

<p>If there is a Women in Engineering Group, should they be forced to accept men? If they choose to, then fine, but should they be forced to? </p>

<p>I went to an all-girls high school and thankfully it is still an all-girls high school. Is it segregated by sex for some kind of ugly reason? No. </p>

<p>That said, I do think the school could/should institute some incentives for the traditionally white greek houses to recruit AAs. However, then the school will have to deal with pressures from the AA community that the school is trying to ruin/undermine the power of the Black Greek houses.</p>

<p>I hope this thread doesn’t become another “beat a dead horse” thread.</p>

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<p>I don’t follow GLO affairs and controversies, so I read this column in a vacuum. I don’t see where it said or even implied that Bob Witt is a racist or supports racism.</p>

<p>To me, this falls perfectly in line with the history of Dr. Witt’s administration in regards to its unnecessary difficulties with student-administration communication and relations.</p>

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<p>

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<p>It’s a concern for a lot of people looking at UA because of their great scholarship package. That’s not beating a dead horse. It is a valid concern. I’ve been following the Alabama thread for about a year now and whenever someone asks about the social culture in the south in general or something like racism in the Greek system specifically, there’s a lot of push back that ranges from “you must subscribe to oversimplified and insulting stereotypes of the south if you’re even asking the question” to “this is the Bama thread, don’t say anything negative about Bama” to “it’s already been mentioned before so we don’t want to talk about it anymore.” </p>

<p>As far as the first goes, there are different cultures, vibes, views, diversity, traditions, and tolerance levels on different campuses and in different cities across the country. Anyone who spends time in different areas knows there are differences. Discussing them isn’t stereotyping. We see threads all over CC asking questions like, “are the students at XXXX intellectual snobs?” “I like to party on the weekends, is it true that everyone at XXXX spends all weekend in the library?” “I love a good football game, is it true that no one at XXXX even shows up to watch the football team?” “I’m gay and out, will I be accepted at XXXXX?” No student wants to end up at a college for 4 years where they feel like a round peg surrounded by 20,000 square holes. It doesn’t mean they think southerners have no teeth and it doesn’t mean they can only be comfortable if EVERYONE around them is just like they are. It’s just trying to get a feel for the vibe.</p>

<p>As for the second, this thread isn’t the property of, marketing material for, or propaganda machine for Bama. It’s a subforum on a large public forum where people share info about colleges and everything to do with colleges. Of course people should be able to ask questions or state opinions, good or bad, about the school. Other schools’ threads do it all the time. I’ve seen it several times here - “if you want to say something bad about Alabama, take it somewhere else - this is the Bama thread.” I disagree - if you have questions or statements about University of Alabama, share them here. Good or bad.</p>

<p>About the third method of push back, there are lots of things that get mentioned time and time again here, and that’s fine. The scholarships packages are great and get questioned and explained about every other week. The campus is beautiful and gets talked about over and over. People are friendly and girls are pretty - we hear that a lot too. The honors college is wonderfully supportive - that shows up about every other week too. If there is still racism on campus and supported by administration, it’s OK to talk about it. It’s a legitimate concern. The fact that Greek alumni will hold back their money and campus administrators don’t want to rock the boat isn’t justification to continue it. If the frats were holding animal sacrifices, setting fire to classrooms, or vandalizing the football stadium it wouldn’t be tolerated. The fact that racism is does reflect poorly upon the school, and for those of us who are trying to figure out if our kids can be happy surrounded by that culture is EXACTLY within the scope of why a forum like CC exists.</p>

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<p>* If there is still racism on campus and supported by administration,*</p>

<p>Racism isn’t “supported by administration”. That’s why the thesis of the title of this thread is misleading and unfair. </p>

<p>As Feeno points out, the article doesn’t show that Dr. Witt is a racist or supports racism. The thread’s title is just one that was posed to stir additional controversy.</p>

<p>The same title could read, “University Presidents across this country cannot defend the fact that students segregate themselves by ethnic/religious groups socially and at the lunch tables.” Because that’s a fact everywhere. No one can “defend” that that goes on, it just does. </p>

<p>Frankly, I never bought into the one student’s post who said certain alumni would pull funds if the frats integrated. If there are a few of those well-heeled people left in the world, then find others who would replace those donations. The racist ones are clearly out-numbered. The truth is that racist people are more likely to be amongst the uneducated, lower-incomes…not the well-heeled, more educated alums. And, that’s the truth everywhere. </p>

<p>That said, that frat student did say that AA kids do go to their parties, so if this really was a racist issue, do you really think that AA kids would come to those parties? Do you really think that they would be welcomed?</p>

<p>I’m from Calif, and there is racism there…anti-Hispanic stuff gets said, anti-black stuff gets said, and anti-Asian stuff gets said (such as the ugly notion that “they’re overtaking our UCs”). The UCs even try to do questionably-racist back-flips with admissions otherwise the Asian admission numbers would be even higher. </p>

<p>It is frustrating that other campuses have “racism issues” that get reported, but no one sits there an goes…“Oh, those racist UCs - it’s not right for my kid.” But, if something is related to a southern schools, you have people wagging their fingers and saying, “well, that’s the south for you.” </p>

<p>And, this finger-wagging goes on without further looking into the situation to see if anything can really be done without upsetting the people that you think you’re helping. You may think you’re “helping” AAs by getting them into non-AA houses. Well, you might be helping the few AAs that want to be in non-AA houses. But, you’d be annoying the AA houses that would feel that their houses were being undermined. </p>

<p>Yes, if AA kids want to Rush and join non-AA houses, then that should be encouraged and there should be incentives for that to happen more easily. I have posted such support several times. I’ve given suggestions as to how that should happen …because suggestions that would work is the answer…and suggestions to the right people. </p>

<p>It is not a bad reflection on the administration that they don’t spend a bunch of time on something that is not being demanded. Time is precious, and time gets spent on school facilities, faculty hires, budget concerns, the squeekiest wheels, and things that many are clamoring about. It’s only natural that when time is precious, time doesn’t get spent on things that aren’t getting lots of complaints. That’s the way the world works. </p>

<p>But, again, yes, I do think some incentives should occur. </p>

<p>BTW…when I implied that this thread will likely become another one of beating a dead horse, I didn’t mean that the there isn’t anything that can be done. I think there are certain things that can be done.</p>

<p>* I’ve seen it several times here - “if you want to say something bad about Alabama, take it somewhere else - this is the Bama thread.” I disagree - if you have questions or statements about University of Alabama, share them here. Good or bad.</p>

<p>*</p>

<p>I think the point is that because the Bama forum is more active than 99% of other schools, things can get posted that don’t properly reflect the school and can leave prospective people with a distorted view. And, a view that makes them (wrongly) think that since the other forums don’t have such posts, then those schools don’t have such issues. There are things that “reflect poorly” about all schools, but their forums aren’t active. That’s why this forum can be a blessing and a curse.</p>

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<p>BTW…my older son is in grad school at a Top 20 school. I have spent many days there looking/watching. Oh, guess what? the students group by color, religion, and ethnic group in social situations…lunch tables, clubs, social settings. </p>

<p>And, all around the campus are ads for various clubs…Hindus, Catholics, Jewish, Evangelicals, AAs, Hispanic, Women in Science, Women Engineers, Hispanic Engineers, AA Engineers, AAs in Medicine, etc, etc. If we are going to allow such groups to exist, are we supporting racism or sexism? </p>

<p>If we don’t pressure these groups to not have titles/names that would make it intimidating for an outsider to join, are we supporting systemic racism?</p>

<p>Does that mean that the president of this Top 20 school defends systemic segregation?</p>

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<p>Excellent Post Pinot!!!</p>

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<p>quote: “The fact that Greek alumni will hold back their money and campus administrators don’t want to rock the boat isn’t justification to continue it.”</p>

<p>Is this an established fact?</p>

<p>quote: "The fact that racism is does reflect poorly upon the school, and for those of us who are trying to figure out if our kids can be happy surrounded by that culture is EXACTLY within the scope of why a forum like CC exists. "</p>

<p>Is racism tolerated on campus at UA? If so, is it more tolerated than on other campuses being considered by those considering UA? Will our kids be any more “surrounded by that culture” than at other colleges? </p>

<p>My son looked seriously at UA, U of I, Washington U, Stanford, Cal Tech, Princeton, Harvard, MIT, and University of Chicago, and based on what we saw at each school, I don’t see where he is anymore “surrounded by that culture” at UA than he would have been at any of those other schools. Perhaps it depends on how each of us defines racism and where our eyes let us see it and where our eyes do not.</p>

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<p>If Dr. Witt had said, “It is acceptable for organizations who build houses on University land, in some cases with University bonds, to continue to disqualify certain students from membership because of their race,” I would disenroll my son from UA in a New York minute. </p>

<p>But, that is not what he said. What he said was, “It is appropriate that all our sororities and fraternities – traditionally African-American, traditionally white and multicultural – determine their membership.” Saying that organizations need to make their own choices is not tantamount to saying it is permissable in Alabama to be racist/segregationist/discriminatory, nor does it make them immune from the consequences of their choices or preclude the University from sanctioning fraternities and sororities who fail to meet whatever racial quotas the cognoscenti would like to see imposed on them. </p>

<p>This is a thorny, complex issue and it is simplistic and counterproductive to set up a boogie man (in this case Dr. Witt) as a rallying point. As the saying goes, the easiest thing in the world to be is a critic. </p>

<p>Is Dr. Witt a racist? I hardly think so. He presides over a university that has created a public monument honoring the brave students who integrated the school, a university that I believe now has the second largest AA student population among state flagship schools (somebody correct me if I’m wrong). And he came down swiftly, surely, and clearly when a racial epithet was hurled at an AA student by a caucasian student from the window of a fraternity last spring. </p>

<p>Could his words in the quote above have been chosen more carefully? Certainly. Do his critics have bonafide solutions? If so, I hope they will share them parallel to their critiques. That way we might have a productive conversation rather than a polarizing one, which serves nobody.</p>

<p>As an aside, for those of you readers out there who are considering UA, my son came to Bama as a GDI (someone who had no use for the Greek system). Nevertheless, he ended up joining a fraternity last year as a freshman. He is racially/ethnically/religiously mixed (Filipino, East Indian, caucasian, Catholic, Jewish, Hindu). His fraternity also offered a bid to an AA student last year, but the gentleman had to decline because he couldn’t afford the expense. FWIW.</p>

<p>Finally, with regard to Pinot Noir’s comments, I fully agree that this forum can and should be used to opine positively and negatively, where applicable, about UA. If Bama is what we know it is, it can certainly withstand, and benefit from, constructive criticism.</p>

<p>Aloha and Roll Tide.</p>

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<p>mom2ck, I owe you so much (and so does my son), and I can never repay the debt : although I’ll try…but I must respectfully disagree on this one. I think Dr. Witt’s remarks were unfortunate, if only because they were open to misconstruction.</p>

<p>As vibrant and on-the-rise as UA is right now…the last thing it needs is this negative publicity.</p>

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<p>*This is a thorny, complex issue and it is simplistic and counterproductive to set up a boogie man (in this case Dr. Witt) as a rallying point. As the saying goes, the easiest thing in the world to be is a critic. </p>

<p>Is Dr. Witt a racist? I hardly think so*</p>

<p>Exactly…and this thought process that the Greek system is racist then logically suggests that its members (Black and White) are racist…and when certainly most are not (can’t say everyone is not a racist, because there are crazies in every large group.) </p>

<p>* I think Dr. Witt’s remarks were unfortunate, if only because they were open to misconstruction.</p>

<p>*</p>

<p>We have no idea of everything he said. Journalists with agendas are famous for picking out phrases, that without context, or without the entire paragraph of words, can seem to be saying something other than the intent.</p>

<p>Someone could come and cherry pick a phrase from my posts on this subject and use them to suggest/imply that I am a racist. </p>

<p>I’m probably one of the few white people who’ve posted who lives in a sub-division that is about 25-30% AA. I certainly wouldn’t suggest that those of you who live in areas where people often live in ethnic clusters as racists…because I know that is how some areas in this country are. And, I don’t think it’s systemic racism if those who live in those areas don’t make huge efforts to make sure that those ethnic neighborhoods integrate more. Many understand that those ethnic groups like things the way they are…they like their Italian, Polish, Jewish, Black, Korean, Vietnamese, etc, neighborhoods.</p>

<p>This is a thorny, complex issue and it is simplistic and counterproductive to set up a boogie man (in this case Dr. Witt) as a rallying point.</p>

<p>Exactly, and that’s why these threads can be misleading and unproductive. </p>

<p>Now, I’m beating a dead horse. Ugh!</p>

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<p>i think the most you can get from dr witt’s comments is that he supports the status quo…it is up to the individual to determine if that is acceptable.</p>

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<p>I don’t think you can get that from his quote at all. I think Dr Witt understands that FORCING a private group to do something simply doesn’t work.</p>

<p>I was at UA back in 1990 when then UA President Roger Sayers said he was going to force greek integration. BOTH white and black greeks were up in arms. </p>

<p>This is a complex issue and I’d think Dr Witt would have a better grasp of the UA greek system than people on this board who only know what they’ve read or heard. </p>

<p>If you really want to make a change then do so from within instead of outside throwing rocks.</p>

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<p>Not entirely clear what the facts are at Bama, but I think it is plainly wrong for a public university to charter an organization with racially exclusionary policies. </p>

<p>Obviously a comparison of racially exclusionary club policies and single gender schools is fatally flawed.</p>

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<p>I agree with both M2CK and PN, as I think the good and the bad can be discussed multiple times on these forums. </p>

<p>As far as this certian situation is concerned, I would really like to know more back story.</p>

<p>My hunch is that Dr. Witt has not just thrown that “opinion” out into the world without some level of interaction/research/discussion or even evaluation of the colleges rights and abilities in regard to integration of the greek system. Both from a legal and a social responsibility standpoint. Just from reading this article on CW, I noticed a few links from past articles re: greek system and segregation. So I am lead to believe that this is not a new topic of discussion on campus. </p>

<p>I have stated this before, and continue to feel that the main issue is what this segregation, either by choice or by design, does to the student enviornment, morale, and productivity. There are different groups that segregate themselves across our lives, from mens/womens clubs, private clubs, religous groups, work related groups, intelligence levels, age, even hair color. So that does not bother me. Unless it is causing problems in an environment that goes beyond someone writing an editorial letter. </p>

<p>Are the people that are writing the letters only concerned about race segregation, or are they looking at the whole picture? sexual orientation, religion, academic achievement, physical abilities? And how do they propose that it be rectified? Require that greeks HAVE a specific # of people with certian labels in each house/group? And would that translate to the other groups on campus too, like sports teams, academic teams, and clubs? </p>

<p>If there is an instance of a student not being permitted to rush/apply or whatever it is called to a certian house, or real evidence that the only reason someone was not admitted was based on skin color, religion, sexual orientation, or handicap, I absolutely believe that it is the responsiblity to evaluate each of those instances, and that there should be an avenue for complaints through the school or greek system for those complaints to be handled.</p>

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<p>That’s just the thing. There are no official racially exclusionary policies.</p>

<p>What some people don’t get is that there are multi-cultural fraternities and sororities on campus. Black don’t have to pledge a black fraternity and whites don’t have to pledge a white fraternity. there are fraternities that have both as well as other ethnicities. </p>

<p>When I rushed back in 1990 I was asked to stand outside on the front porch of the KA house until my group was done when they found out I was from NJ. Did I get upset? Hell no, I laughed my ass off, and still do to this day. The KA’s are a southern fraternity. And I respected their right to admit who they wanted. There were other options for me just as there are other options for every other current student on campus that wants to be a greek.</p>

<p>The best way to change the greek system at UA is from within. Make the multi-cultural fraternities as strong as possible by choosing to pledge them instead of crying because you can’t get in a traditionally white/black fraternity.</p>

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<p>Yes, but surely you see that discrimination based on your home state is different than discriminating based on your race. For example, if a restaurant refused to seat diners because they were black, the rejected diners may react other than to laugh their asses off. On the hand, refusing service to people from New Jersey seems like plain old common sense.</p>

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<p>Stats21…LOL.</p>

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<p>lol well played, sir</p>