<p>I still think mom2collegekids is right to say that the traditionally AA Greeks might not be happy if incentives lead to a significant number of AA students joining traditionally White Greek houses.</p>
<p>*
But what if a frat wants to be a brotherhood of muslim students, or jewish students, or catholic students? *</p>
<p>I think that is why this issue gets thorny. There are Houses of Worship (Christian, Jewish, etc) that are on Bama property…they lease land just like the Greeks do. Would they be affected in some way by being told that they can’t control their membership? </p>
<p>*that it seems( for now a least ) Dr Witt seems happy with the status quo was his response to the questions posed to him and his response (at the bottom of the article at the beginning of this thread)…what you have posted i think opens a nice path to discussion and change *</p>
<p>I wouldn’t equate the fact that a solution hasn’t come forth as being “happy” with any current situation. Sometimes a person may not like a situation, but suggested solutions also have negative ramifications…so the person waits to see if some other solution surfaces. </p>
<p>*I completely agree that if there is a true problem, and students are being denied membership to any group on campus on a basis of race, religion, sexual orientation, or state they live in (NJ-ha), then the admission practices should be reviewed. But only if the students that are involved in the process believes there is a problem. *</p>
<p>And, this could be the reason why the school hasn’t demanded quick and certain changes…there haven’t been squeaky wheels making such demands.</p>
<p>this …
*I have a suggestion. Would one of the parents here consider drawing up a petition in regards to this issue? I think we would all like to see more diversity in the UA Greek system. We all seem to think incentives rather than quotas is the best solution. This petition could be circulated via the private messaging here or via email. Anyone up for it? This petition could be emailed to Witt and several administrators. Just keep it respectful and free of assumptions. Also, the incentives need to be set up in a way that avoids a push for tokenism. Thanks. *</p>
<p>Houses of worship are typically not exclusionary. You can attend, and feel free to believe otherwise.</p>
<p>Likewise, points regarding all male or female associations are well off the mark. There are good and valid reasons that men’s and women’s public restrooms are separate. But separate public restrooms for black men and white men would offend most Americans, and rightfully so. Most people can plainly see that one has a discriminatory purpose, while the other does not.</p>
<p>Atl68, I would hope that the unhappiness of traditionally AA house might feel if AA members in some number began to pledge elsewhere would be grounded in a fear of diminishing chapter numbers, not in being unhappy that AAs had wider alternatives. Like all houses, they are concerned with keeping numbers up or increasing membership. Having more choices is not a bad thing. I have friends that are Kappas and/or Omegas and they are fiercely loyal to their frats … And very competitive between themselves as well! While they may feel AAs “should” pledge there, they would not begrudge those making different choices if the system was open to it.</p>
<p>I would hope that the unhappiness of traditionally AA house might feel if AA members in some number began to pledge elsewhere would be grounded in a fear of diminishing chapter numbers,</p>
<p>I think that is the concern. Just like the other Greek houses, they depend on membership, alumni support, etc, to thrive. Rush/Pledging is the life-blood of any house. Once a house has one or two poor turnouts for rush, the house can have a very hard time recovering.</p>
<p>If the members of a fraternity or sorority are collectively racist, or alumni who feed the piggy bank of a house are, how would incentives change the rules for them? If the alumni dont want to include AAs or any other group then they wouldnt care if they received monetary or other types of incentives to open their doors. </p>
<p>Forced quotas would certainly take care of the perceived problem, but how many per house, 10%, 20%, 50%? And, if houses were forced to admit based on race instead of whether or not students were socially a good fit for the house, then what? Would it be better to have integration in the system but segregation within the houses?
Forcing people to belong to a group that isnt culturally, socially, economically, or academically similar can create more problems than it can fix. </p>
<p>I know several white girls who went through Rush in Midwestern universities with strong Greek systems who didnt get a bid. A few tried again their sophomore year and didnt get a bid again. One of them is overweight. Perhaps she was discriminated against because of her weight? Should sororities be required to admit a percentage of girls who have BMIs in the obese range? Another had mediocre grades that she blames on ADHD and depression. Should the sororities at her school be required to admit a percentage of girls who fall under the Disabilities Act? </p>
<p>Its sad to think that anyone would be turned away from a fraternity or sorority based upon their looks, be it skin color, weight, acne, thin hair, whatever; however, we all know that happens in every aspect of life, not just the Greek system, and certainly not only at UA. Yet, can anyone prove that the few AAs who do rush at UA, or any school, dont receive bids at white houses because they are black? Is it possible that personality might play a role? </p>
<p>A great example of personality, not race, comes from my own social circle. I live in an affluent community that is mostly white. My circle of girlfriends embraced a young AA woman who moved into our neighborhood. She was beautiful, well educated, and seemed like a lovely person when we first met her. It only took a few get togethers until we realized that she was rude, bossy, and oh so opinionated. We stopped inviting her to our happy hours and social gatherings because she made people feel bad, not because she was AA. Believe it or not, we were called racist by a few women who came to her rescue. Not long after they took her in, they dumped her. It wasnt about her race, it was about her personality. </p>
<p>Diversity is important, especially in public schools, and racism is ugly and should never be tolerated, having said that, I dont think that social organizations should be forced to accept people who dont fit into the culture of the organization.</p>
<p>*If the members of a fraternity or sorority are collectively racist, or alumni who feed the piggy bank of a house are, how would incentives change the rules for them? If the alumni don’t want to include AAs or any other group then they wouldn’t care if they received monetary or other types of incentives to open their doors. </p>
<p>*</p>
<p>I wouldn’t say that any house is “collectively racist”. Certainly, in any group of 200+ members, you’re going to have some people with crazy views on everything from race to religion to politics to whatever. </p>
<p>And, I don’t think the concern should be alumni…if there are a few of those out them.</p>
<p>how would incentives change the rules for them?</p>
<p>I think if the incentive was financial…such as any house who doesn’t make true and honest attempts to integrate will lose their $1k per year lease…their new lease will be (large sum) per year. </p>
<p>If a few houses have some nutty alums who will write those big checks, then fine. Take those cumulative large sums and use that money to further the integration efforts of the others. Once those few nuts see that their big checks are going to fund plans to help integrate the others, I think you’ll see them fold like cheap tents. </p>
<p>Earlier, I suggested $12k per year. Some said that isn’t enough…fine…make if $50k per year. If a couple houses pay that penalty, then that’s $100k each year to go towards integration efforts. Make the houses who have powerful nuts pay for the integration of other houses.</p>
<p>What many fail to understand is that a Univ has very little input regarding the operations of a Greek chapter. Granted the UA leases land for houses and officially “recognizes” an org, but that’s about where their influence ends. How many times over the years has a fraternity been kicked off campus, have its members rent houses, continue to recruit members, then once the ban period expires return to campus almost as strong as when it left? </p>
<p>These are private organizations with their own governing bodies: Panhellenic/NPC, IFC/NIC, and their own Inter/National orgs. All orgs have policies against discrimination based on race, religion, ethnicity, etc. In addition all orgs have policies/procedures regarding membership selection.</p>
<p>Point being, IMHO the org(s) that would have a more dramatic influence on integration isn’t the University. Instead it would be more effective coming from the above listed groups.</p>
<p>P.S. Occasionally someone brings up the Greek male/female issue as segregation as well. Title IX, which covers sexual discrimination in education, specificially exempts fraternities and sororities along with a few other groups.</p>
<p>Calantha, it is not a failure in understanding, these are the exactly the issues that make resolution of the problem so difficult. However, IF UA, like some other schools were to treat the Fraternal Orgs just like they treat ALL the other Orgs on campus and hold them to a higher standard for non discrimination policy, then while working WITH the Greek governing bodies they could work towards eventual change. And per your point that those houses kicked off then eventually return, I do not find that the reasoning holds water. Banishment from official University recognition, loss of leases & housing, loss of block seating at football games, and all the other benefits that Fraternal Houses gain by official recognition by the University IS a BIG deal to those chapters. Sure they may survive or even thrive off campus during banishment periods, but be that as it may, they are still not part of the traditional system during those times of punishment, and their cost models and non-integrated recruitment during these times puts their very existence in jeopardy. As a person that re-chartered my Fraternity at my University in the early 80s after a 10 year banishment, I can tell you that our petition to our University was strictly scrutinized and there were high hurdles to overcome before we received our charter after our 1 year probation period. Legal theory: If the punishment fits the offense it serves 2 purposes. 1) Obviously it punishes the offender, but just as important if not more so 2) it serves as a deterrent, placing the rest of the community on notice of what they should expect if they act the same way.</p>
<p>Yes, the national rules for the greek houses do not allow for discrimination.</p>
<p>* Granted the UA leases land for houses *</p>
<p>And, that’s where Bama could use leverage. If a few nutty alums are using their checkbooks to keep traditionally Black houses Black and White houses mostly White, then let them write the checks for much larger lease agreements. And, then, the funds from those big checks could fund integration recruitment efforts for the complying houses.</p>
<p>Also, choice locations for building new houses is another point of leverage. </p>
<p>I really think that after these nutty few see that their big checks are being used against their own efforts, they’ll fold like cheap tents. (Frankly, I think there are very few alums who would write those big checks…the ones who would have written them in 1990 (referenced earlier) are probably not around anymore. If they did write them, they probably would get outed at some point, and that kind of exposure would not be good for whatever line of business they’re in.)</p>
<p>^ I don’t think they should get the opportunity to purchase their way out of discrimination. If it is shown an organization denied membership based on race, ban them for a period of years for the first offense, and ban them for life for a second offense. I wouldn’t play money games with rich, bigoted Alums or parents.</p>
<p>^ Membership selection in Greek Organizations is private. There would be know way to prove why any prospective new member (pnm) is dropped during recruitment. Each year about 10-12 % of the pnms that go through recruitment at UA do not receive bids. Some are released, some choose to drop from the process. As lovemykids2 posted, pnms can be dropped from recruitment for a variety of reasons. The reason a pnm is dropped is never shared outside the organization, membership selection is private. I don’t see UA or any university ever changing that.</p>
<p>I’m not sure how much alum money is sent to chapters on an annual basis. The chapters actually send money to the national organization in the form of national dues. I know I do not send any money to my sorority at a different SEC school, although I pay my national per capita dues.</p>
<p>If any of you belong to a GLO and are concerned with the way it is being managed at UA, I suggest you volunteer to become a chapter advisor. That would be the most effective way to change the culture of your organization. Let the the other GLOs manage their own affairs.</p>
<p>^^^ Sorry, not good enough. Listen, we know it’s private, that’s just another one of the variables that makes it so hard, right? But that doesn’t make it right. And as was posted yesterday, other Universities ARE making it happen. Read what has been posted and you’ll see that we’re asking for ALL sides, the University, Greek Orgs, AND their governing bodies to begin to work towards a “more inclusive” culture. May some houses remain all or mostly white (for whatever reason)? Certainly. But if the opportunity for inclusion is REAL and ALL participants going in really feel and believe that they have a shot at any house that’s willing to meet them and consider them for membership, then THAT is real change. Because right now, people KNOW and BELIEVE going in that they have NO chance at all, and that is what’s wrong with the entire system, not just the decisions being made inside a single house’s membership committee.</p>
<p>^^^^ Hiring is private, but there are ways to find out if a decision to not hire someone was based on race. UA can set policies that require UA recognized organizations to allow their membership selection to be investigated if there is a charge of discrimination and to require full, honest participation of the organization being investigated and all of its members. If an organization can’t live with that, there is nothing forcing them to be part of the UA system.</p>
<p>Speaking only for myself, I am not a member of a GLO and I doubt my kids will ever be members or even attempt to be members. I do think those that are should be making efforts to stop any discrimination that is occurring in the GLO.</p>
<p>“Speaking only for myself, I am not a member of a GLO and I doubt my kids will ever be members or even attempt to be members. I do think those that are should be making efforts to stop any discrimination that is occurring in the GLO.”</p>
<p>So you really have no idea what membership is based on, you are assuming it’s racist. Since you are not a member of a GLO don’t you think it’s rather presumptuous on your part to come on a forum and tell the members and alums how to run their organization?</p>
<p>Everyone has an opinion, but you have no inside knowledge as to how GLOs function, choose members or finance their operations.</p>
<p>“So you really have no idea what membership is based on, you are assuming it’s racist.”</p>
<p>I think you should carefully re-read what I have said here, because I have made no such assumption. Suggesting ways to respond to assertions of racism and ways to deal with racism if it is shown to exist does not equate to saying that it does exist.</p>
<p>Dad, have you considered my idea about a petition? I respectfully ask that this dead horse be dropped and a petition started. This thread is doing no good unless it leads to an attempt at change. As an alum, I resent the critique of UA wout an attempt to appeal to the administration. Lets stop obsessing about this and actually do something productive.</p>
<p>
Yet another example of how those who are not Greek do not understand how these orgs operate. Even if a Univ made such a policy, the GLOs cannot cooperate without express written permission from their Inter/National org. Membership selection, along with many other aspects of Greek life, are confidential and are not to be made public. </p>
<p>So even if a group has absolutely nothing to hide it is not allowed to talk. This is why no one ever prints/hears the story from the other side. If I am not mistaken all Greek orgs have policies preventing its members from speaking to the press. All statements must either come from or be approved by the Inter/National org.</p>
<p>So again I’d like to reemphasize my point that a more effective course of action is to pursue this through the various Greek governing bodies.</p>
<p>Atl68 … yes, i have considered it, but am not certain this forum contains either enough numbers to carry a petition driven mandate OR the technical wherewithal to accomplish the task of petitioning itself. Certainly the general consensus here is for a dialogue for change. And other recent posters seem to think, that there’s no problem at all. :-)</p>
<p>I would bet any $$$ that Dr. Witt and the administration (and previous administrations) have FULLY researched the University’s “options” legally and otherwise and are actually well versed in what they are capable of doing or not doing.</p>
<p>If anecdotal evidence here is to be believed, then some of the sororities are “ready” to integrate (regardless of shade of skin or ethnicity), but are waiting for more systematic general consensus. If true, and I suspect it is, then there is already some form of dialogue happening somewhere, I would presume.</p>
<p>While I was a member of a national fraternity, and understand the processes in play during recruitment and the interaction between the university, Alumni, and National Orgs, my daughter has no intentions currently of joining.</p>
<p>What we are trying to change here are perceptions first. There is a perception both from GDI students looking in and from parents and others like me looking from the outside that the WONDERFULLY RICH and IMPORTANT Greek system at UA is still in some way hampered by the “old traditions” … some rooted in historical racism, but ALSO aspects of maintaining the social elite as a class from a socio-economic standpoint. This perception is hard to overcome, obviously.</p>
<p>As an Alumni, I’m certain that you care a great deal about UA in ways that I do not fully understand. I’d personally welcome any ideas that would further the dialogue beyond these closed (and rehashed) confines. I’m not certain that a petition is warranted, but perhaps just a well drawn letter of inquiry … If we could determine how to best present it such that it would really have a chance of being read and addressed.</p>
<p>Really, I’m sure that there IS a lot going on both at the University & GLO levels that we are not aware of. I certainly hope that there would be anyway. :-)</p>
<p>“Even if a Univ made such a policy, the GLOs cannot cooperate without express written permission from their Inter/National org.” So what. That doesn’t change what I suggested. The GLO can get the permission from their Inter/National org or be excluded from UA. </p>
<p>“Membership selection, along with many other aspects of Greek life, are confidential and are not to be made public.” Again, the GLO (including their Inter/National org) can either be flexible in this regard in response to a requirement from UA or it can be excluded from UA.</p>
<p>I again agree that those who participate in a GLO should be addressing any racism that occurs in the GLO.</p>