<p>As I continue to help my d2, future Div.I gymnast and accountant (how weird is that!) look at undergraduate schools with business/accounting programs, the limited data I have been able to turn up shows some very, shall we say, "interesting" trends. First of all, women in these programs - from Wharton and UMichigan on down - are outnumbered, from 7:1 to as high as 20:1. (My d. puts two thumbs up. ;)) Secondly, at many of these schools, even top ones, the seeming ratio of female applicants to first-year women attending is often close to 1:1. (At several top 50 programs, we found more women attending than applying, which is really quite a trick, and probably one that only someone with a business degree can explain.) This would have to mean (I would think) that admissions standards - GPAs and test scores, etc. - are lower, and I mean very much lower - for female applicants - and admit rates are hugely higher. (Which of course means the data on all other applicants, both to business programs, and to the schools generally speaking, is very distorted.)</p>
<p>Now, as it turns out, we don't care very much. My d's academics are more than sufficient, and, really, the only question is whether the school will shell out the big bucks to purchase her athletic services. Still, the distortion here is quite striking, and I'm glad to see that this is another area where affirmative action holds sway. </p>
<p>But what it also means is that admissions data from Penn to NYU to Mich to UIUC are more unreliable than I had previously thought.</p>
<p>Just to give you a sense of how strange the numbers look: according to Business Week, there were 39 women in the most recent undergraduate class at Wharton (out of around 600), and 37 applicants for the freshperson class. At NYU-Stern, there were 61 female applicants out 4200 applicants; and 49 grads in the most recent class. At UVA, 40 out of 640. At Ohio State, 50 applied for most recent class; and 39 graduated from last graduating class.</p>
<p>Well, I am one of those "only someone with a business degree" :p. Mine is a grad degree, though, so I'm probably clueless. Couldn't the "more women attending than applying" trick be explained by intra-school transfers? I apply to UPenn for Art Appreciation and then decide I want to be a Museum Director so I sidle over to the B-school to collect a few executive skills? A common scenario, I'm sure ;).</p>
<p>BTW, an aside. Why an undergraduate business program? I have never really understood why people want to do an undergraduate business major. Business IMO is extremely difficult to study. The entry level jobs you get rarely require any kind of "business" knowledge. Usually you have to know how to sell (not taught in schools) or do spreadsheets (doesn't require an entire degree) or write collateral (again, doesn't require an undergraduate degree).</p>
<p>Now I am completely open to the idea that I am wrong. But I confess to a bias that when I see someone majored undergraduate in business I assume they won't have a broad view of the world. OK, flame away.</p>
<p>She's very clear - she's NOT looking for a business program, but accounting. She wants an athletic program with accounting in a big city where she can also study languages (Spanish and Arabic). She already does the books for several peace groups in town, and helped organize and do the books for a major Israeli-Palestinian peace conference run by the Rachel Corrie Foundation. Wants to be a CPA (not my choice, but it fits her very well.) Does fine academically, but books are not her thing. She's also a very gifted classical pianist, and jazz vocalist. </p>
<p>"But I confess to a bias that when I see someone majored undergraduate in business I assume they won't have a broad view of the world. OK, flame away."</p>
<p>I have exactly the same bias. But I also know how we've educated our kid. She has ongoing relationships with (and performed benefit concerts for) folks in Rwanda-Burundi, Israel and Palestine (hence the need to learn Arabic), and India. She's figured out (at 15) already how to use her special interests and skills to connect with other people, and things she believes in. Last night went to a community presentation of a film about Dietrich Boenhoeffer.</p>
<p>Now I am completely open to the idea that I am wrong. But I confess to a bias that when I see someone majored undergraduate in business I assume they won't have a broad view of the world
I admit to same bias- I prefer to see engineering- education- business degrees as post BA rather than a undergrad major
However- I am thinking of one young woman, who has been interested in business all her life- attended Bucknell briefly but found it not to her liking at all- transfered to Western Washington university- studied abroad in Melbourne,( Sydney?) where she learned about specifically the Australian wine business, came back to Bellingham and after graduation working in a catering business that runs high end business luncheons( she is moving up quickly in the company- infact she may have already left to start her own)
The international business majors do involve quite a bit of expereince with other parts of the world, but I still have a bias against them for undergrad.</p>
<p>The numbers came from the Business Week profiles. I think they wrote numbers where they meant percentages. (What can you expect from B-school grads? ;))</p>
<p>"What sport does she play?"</p>
<p>Gymnast.</p>
<p>"I assume they won't have a broad view of the world."</p>
<p>Nowadays, in the vast majority of business programs we've investigated (with some exceptions), the first two years look exactly like the first two years of an econ major at a liberal arts college. Distributional requirements in math, writing, in some places languages, micro and macro ec., in several places a science, a cross-cultural requirement, and usually one class (out of 16-20 in the first two years) as a business intro. In fact, about half the schools don't accept a business major until their junior year (Haas at Berkeley, Ross at Michigan until very recently, UNC and William and Mary are examples). Since my kid will have had two years of college classes already (through Running Start in Washington State), she will have already completed the equivalent of a 4-year liberal arts degree before she actually does the accounting piece (thougn we hope they'll give her some of the credits/placement from Running Start so she can - if she chooses - complete her CPA coursework in her fourth year of athletic eligibility.) In other words, if this all works (we'll see), after four years, she'll have done a liberal arts degree, a business/accounting degree, and will be able to sit for her CPA exam, all without it costing us a dime. Nice dream - we'll see....</p>
<p>Will she ever read Tolstoy? Sigh. I doubt it. But then most folks will never play Rachmaninoff or Scriabin.</p>
<p>I'm a little confused as to your daughter looking for accounting programs, but not business programs, as the former is usually a subset of the latter. If she wants to do accounting without doing the other business requirements (like finance, marketing, management, etc) it may be hard to find a program..</p>
<p>With regards to Alumother's bias "But I confess to a bias that when I see someone majored undergraduate in business I assume they won't have a broad view of the world." - I think that you are still thinking about the undergrad business programs of 20 years ago. They are NOT the same anymore and the programs (particularly at the top schools) are going to have a very balanced integration of business and liberal arts.</p>
<p>Assuming that business students are less well-rounded and don't have a broad view of the world is horribly wrong. On top of liberal arts requirements, you will also find that business schools have a strong emphasis on global/international studies. </p>
<p>I really think that you all should seriously investigate the top programs before making judgments about the educations that they provide. I try not to get offended, but it's a huge pet-peeve of mine!</p>
<p>Mini, you and your future accountant D may want to look more carefuly at the sources of your data. We don't want any more Enrons, after all! ;)</p>
<p>Here is data from Wharton's site about percentage of a recent class that was female: Class of 2004 Profile
4,200 applications
519 entering freshman
39% female</p>
<ul>
<li>parent of an econ major at Smith (who begrudgingly took one accounting course there at her father's suggestion.)</li>
</ul>
<p>"
I'm a little confused as to your daughter looking for accounting programs, but not business programs, as the former is usually a subset of the latter. If she wants to do accounting without doing the other business requirements (like finance, marketing, management, etc) it may be hard to find a program.."</p>
<p>We know...there are business programs without subspecialties in accounting (William & Mary immediately comes to mind), but all accounting programs are within business programs. So the requirements are Div. I women's gymnastics with scholarships (rules out Wharton - which was also ruled out for other reasons that I don't need to go into here), business program with accounting subspecialty, strong foreign languages, preferably in a city. We've got the list already.</p>
<p>And we found what you say to be true, and not only at the top programs. Virtually all of the business programs have a strong emphasis on global/international studies/cultural competency, with requirements much stricter than the top liberal arts programs. At some schools, two years of language are required. At others, (such as the University of Denver), study/work abroad are built into the programs. At others, course work in other cultures is required. For my d., all this is seen as a big plus.</p>
<p>"Mini, you and your future accountant D may want to look more carefuly at the sources of your numbers."</p>
<p>As noted, they came from Business Week. But I think they simply put the labels in incorrectly.</p>
<p>Actually the entry level jobs you get with a business degree require quite a bit of business background. You have to have some understanding of accting and finance to even construct a meaningful spreadsheet. Also most new hires don't just sit around doing spreadsheets all day. </p>
<p>The jobs also pay an actual professional level living wage and have nearly unlimited room for advancement. Unless you can get into a Top 15 school or a top 10 LAC and have a good numbers aptitude, you will have more good job choices coming out of any Top 30 ug business program.</p>
<p>mini, you might want to encourage your daughter to spend a week shadowing a CPA or someone who works in finance at a large company to see what accounting is all about. I work in HR and frequently meet frustrated former accounting majors, who completed the major, didn't sit for, or pass the CPA exam, and are now casting about for something else to do. If she's interested in finance she doesn't need an accounting degree (but some of the accounting classes will be helpful down the road if she takes the CFA) and it might offer a broader range of courses in her major.</p>
<p>Just a thought.... I meet few people who knew at age 17 that they wanted to be an accountant....</p>
<p>I admit I kinda cringe when I hear about someone going to that field because of my bother in laws ( no mispelling) experience
He has several grad degrees CFA related, and has been CFO for a few companies- internal auditor for large banks etc.
Because of mergers, exporting work etc- he is now selling insurance out of his basement at 56.( nothing wrong with that if htat is what you want to do- but is the only thing he would agree to after looking for a job for almost two years)
He isn't the only one that I know who is doing that- so my impression is to get as much diverse work experience as you can- it can only help</p>
<p>" If she's interested in finance she doesn't need an accounting degree (but some of the accounting classes will be helpful down the road if she takes the CFA) and it might offer a broader range of courses in her major.'</p>
<p>Strangely enough (to me) she really is interested in accounting (CPA not CFA), but, mind you, all of the business programs offer "business" degrees, with accounting subspecialties (as electives). She already has mentors.</p>
<p>As for something to do, she is going to be rich, and would even today make a great lounge lizard. (You really would pay good money to hear her - and she's raised thousands of dollars for her favorite causes as a musician already, and is only 15.) But what I like about all of the programs we are looking at, is that (as noted) all of them offer what are essentially liberal arts programs in the first two years, and there are plenty of opportunities to change over. It's much more difficult to go the other way (except at schools that only accept business majors for the last two years.) So she will have completed a 4-year liberal arts curriculum before doing the accounting thing big time.</p>
<p>Yup. That's where we hope her Running Start credits will come into play, which would allow her to do those in her 4th year of athletic eligibility.</p>
<p>Of course, all of this could change by next Tuesday. ;)</p>
<p>Good luck with the hunt. I guess there are only a handful of decent schools around giving scholarships for gymnastics (dying sport at the college level) and having a good undergraduate experience and a good accting program.</p>