Women's Experiences at Dartmouth

Colleges and Universities A-Z Dartmouth College
1

<p>I was taken aback this evening by a friend of mine's comments, reinforced by her Dad, that Dartmouth has never become successfully coeducational, never fully integrated women into the Dartmouth experience. They held out Princeton and Williams (the Dad's alma mater) as examplars of formerly all-male schools where women are now fully integral. </p>

<p>My friend, an outstanding lacrosse player, was recruited by Dartmouth and Brown (where she'll go) felt that at D she would be "a second-class citizen."</p>

<p>Can someone please shed light on these comments? Are they simply one familty's opinion or is there some basis to them in fact? I would love to hear from women currently at D, recent women grads and Moms and Dads with daughters at D.</p>

<p>Thanks in advance.</p>

2

<p>I was wondering about this also because I heard that gender division is more apparent at Dartmouth than other colleges, both academically and socially. However, when I asked some female students who currently attend D, none of them really felt it was that apparent. One of my closest friends, whose parents and siblings are all alums, said it wasn't too noticeable either. In any case, I hope it's not so noticeable that it deeply affects my overall experience.</p>

3

<p>I hate to appear naive or not sympathetic to a concern, but what do you mean?</p>

4

<p>Three years ago when D was putting her list together, a friend who is a tenured professor at Dartmouth said much the same thing to her, unsolicited. I believe the phrase this professor used was along the lines of "women are almost second-class citizens" there. </p>

<p>I can't say I put a huge amount of stock in it - it was one comment, from one person, in friendly conversation, but it does bear on your question, BalletGirl.</p>

5

<p>Since I have a daughter who is very interesting in applying, I would really love to have some specific examples of what you mean rather than general allegations. Can someone expand on what we are referring to here. I don't think it is food, housing, access to classes, athletics, etc., but I don't know. Some specific issue or concern would be nice.</p>

6

<p>Dartmouth is obviously a coed school, with thousands of happy female graduates. However, coeducation at Dartmouth differs in some respects from coeducation at many peer institutions.</p>

<p>Firstly, fraternities and sororities play a big role in Dartmouth social life, and these are obviously sex-segregated organizations. At most peer schools, all-male and all-female groups play a smaller role, or none at all: they’ve either gone coed (e.g. eating clubs at Princeton) or been abolished entirely (e.g. frats at Williams). Some people have the impression -- and admittedly this is subjective and intangible -- that Dartmouth feels more socially segregated than other schools. Some people like this, others prefer a more integrated environment.</p>

<p>Secondly, the presence of sex-segregated organizations leads to differing opportunities for male and female students. Male students can join fraternities and females can join sororities; however, the sororities may not be as old, wealthy, or well-connected as the fraternities. Some of the senior societies are coed, but others still only admit men. At other peer schools, this pattern doesn't exist; male and female students generally have the same access to the same student organizations. </p>

<p>For whatever reason, Dartmouth has traditionally attracted fewer female applicants, as a percentage of the total applicant pool, than other peer institutions in New England. Based on 2007-2008 CDS, the % of female applicants was as follows (couldn't find data for Harvard or Wesleyan):</p>

<p>59.6 % Brown
58.1 % Middlebury
55.7 % Amherst
55.4 % Bowdoin
54.1 % Yale
53.7 % Williams
50.4 % Dartmouth</p>

7

<p>Very good explanation and understandable. Thank you.</p>

8

<p>ps-- D says sounds like the World and the absence of a false reality of everyday life so what are we talking about.</p>

9

<p><-- current female undergrad here. The answer is NO, women are not treated like second-class citizens. This is ridiculous. For the most part, those who are not male, white, heterosexual, and wealthy get along just fine. Almost all sports have a male and female team and all majors, student clubs, dining halls, etc are open to students of all genders. But, there are a few instances when gender inequality does arise.</p>

<p>Corbett pointed out the biggest issue surrounding gender inequality at Dartmouth -- the Greek system. Although there are several very popular co-ed and gender-neutral (yes there is a difference!) organizations, the majority are either sororities or fraternities. There are about twice as many frats as there are sororities. One of the sororities lacks a house (meaning there is no viable social space) and another is about to lose theirs. The national sororities also have much stricter rules than the frats, especially concerning alcohol. </p>

<p>Basically, the Greek system is the largest and most popular social option on campus. There is hardly anything to do outside of campus (we really are in the middle of nowhere). A lot of people have great fun with room parties and other small gatherings, going to see films, plays, dance and music ensembles, etc. But a huge percentage of campus also takes advantage of the Greek scene's social options. </p>

<p>So what's the problem? Only a few sororities are really happening on Friday night. Guys don't always feel comfortable partying in a female-dominated sorority, or doing so every weekend. Instead, women often trek out to the frats to party. This means that they are entering a completely male-dominated space. The men set the rules. Most of the time women are respected in frat basements and at parties, but not always. And because it's the men's space, there isn't much they can do about it besides not enter the space again.</p>

<p>Besides the Greek scene, lemme think about what other inequalities exist. A larger percentage of the faculty is male, but this is probably the same at other universities. And honestly, sometimes men and women professors relate better to a certain gender. I've worked for one male prof who just could not relate to me -- I don't know if it was because I was female or because he was incredibly socially awkward or what.</p>

<p>Another issue arises with some of our insane alumni. I've heard stories of alumni who won't donate to the college until we get rid of all the women. One year at the homecoming football game some guy behind me sang the old alma mater lyrics which only mentions the "sons of old Dartmouth" instead of the daughters too. I literally turned around and told him that those were NOT the lyrics. And honestly it gets tiring meeting the old male alumni with their wives tagging along.</p>

<p>Finally, this guy who thinks women are treated as second-class citizens probably thinks that Dartmouth is a hotbed of conservatism. Well nope, over 70% of campus voted for Kerry in the last election. We had a crowd of 5,000 when Obama came and spoke. And Hanover voted the most Democratic of all NH towns in the midterm elections.</p>

10

<p>Most of the top coed colleges in the northeast (with a few notable exceptions, like Bates and Middlebury) were historically all-male institutions. They made the adjustment to coeducation in different ways.</p>

<p>Dartmouth is often contrasted with Williams, since the two schools share many similarities in other respects. When Williams went coed, all of the traditional male fraternities and clubs were gradually dissolved, and the students were strictly forbidden to reorganize them, under penalty of expulsion. So the “old all-male Williams” vanished, and was completely replaced by the “new coed Williams”. Today, male and female students are so completely integrated at Williams that it’s impossible to tell that the school was once exclusively male. But the Williams community paid a high price for this change: 150+ years of tradition and camaraderie were lost forever in the purge of the old frats and clubs.</p>

<p>The Dartmouth community was unwilling to take such a drastic step, so they took a different approach. Dartmouth kept the traditional male-only frats and societies, but supplemented them with newer female-only and coed organizations. So the “old all-male Dartmouth” tradition never really disappeared: it still exists to some extent today, side-by-side with the “new coed Dartmouth”. Today, the continued existence of the old frats and societies (many of which date back to the 19th Century) provides a greater sense of heritage and tradition at Dartmouth than at Williams (also better parties). However, it's obvious that the old Dartmouth traditions include gender segregation and exclusive “boys-only” clubs. Some women don't care for this, others don't mind.</p>

11

<p>Thank you BigGreenJen and Corbett.</p>

<p>Corbett your insights are especially helpful. The historical context you provide on the evolution of social organizations at the once all-male colleges, and the decisions each school has made regarding them, appear to get to the heart of the matter. Williams decided to slay the dread beast (frats), Princeton chose to tame it (eating clubs). Social integration, in both instances, came as a result of explicit administrative policies. </p>

<p>Dartmouth, in the spirit of preserving tradition and maintaining what older alums sometimes call its "exceptionalism", has taken a different, somewhat more conservative path -- provide women with the same rights to organize socially as men and, rather than force integration, let's see what emerges. It is a more organic, less mechanistic approach to bringing about change and more explicilt recognizes gender differences. It also, as IvyisGreen notes, reflects the "real world." </p>

<p>There is a spirit at Dartmouth, rooted in a weird kind of youthful atavism and nativism, it appears to me, that transcends rational explanation in an increasingly politically correct world. It contributes greatly to its appeal for me and for many and, I think, is behind the fierce loyalty of its alumni, men and women. This spirit, in part, is driven by the raw energy emanating from D's social life, to quote Dylan Thomas it is "the force that through green fuse drives the flower." One can choose to embrace, deny it or to shun it. I embrace it and go in eyes wide open.</p>

12

<p>The sororities and fraternities are not equal at Dartmouth, and most of the social life revolves around fraternities. There are other activities, at times, and students don't have to drink, though if you wind up at frats, how much fun is it to hang out with a bunch of drinking people when you are sober? At least the frats are open to all, but it is male controlled.<br>
I don't sense a lot of interaction between upperclasswomen and freshmen either. There is a certain attitude about freshmen girls, not always so positive. There is a group set up to foster a relationship, I believe, but more casual outreach, support of younger women by older ones doesn't seem common.</p>

13

<p>Mmm I'd disagree. Some girls, especially in the basement setting, may get jealous of the attention freshmen girls get. I think you hear rumors about this more than it actually happens. </p>

<p>I'm involved in plenty of campus groups and all my upperclass female friends and I have really enjoyed reaching out and getting to know the freshmen girls. We've held room parties and hosted pong in our sorority for these clubs and freshmen girls really like to attend. </p>

<p>Link Up formed to pair freshmen girls with senior girls. I think it's centered around academic advising, but I'm not sure.</p>

<p>Also, I have gotten to be very good friends with many younger women through my sorority. Once sophomores join a sorority, the gap between older and younger women usually disappears.</p>

14

<p>
[quote]
Williams decided to slay the dread beast (frats), Princeton chose to tame it (eating clubs). Social integration, in both instances, came as a result of explicit administrative policies.

[/quote]
At Williams, there is no question that the administration took the lead. But at Princeton, the primary credit (or blame, depending or your perspective) for full integration of the eating clubs rests largely with a single stubborn undergraduate named Sally Frank, who took the all-male clubs to court when they wouldn't consider her for membership. The Princeton administration may have been sympathetic, but they let Sally do the fighting.</p>

<p>The lawsuit dragged on for 13 years (!); finally the NJ Supreme Court decided in her favor, and the US Supreme Court refused to hear an appeal. So she ultimately won, and all of the eating clubs had to open their doors to female students. But of course this was long after she'd graduated, so ironically she never did join an eating club herself.</p>

<p>I think the key difference between Dartmouth and schools like Princeton or Williams is the existence of what BigGreenJen calls "a completely male-dominated space" where "the men set the rules." At other schools, there is little or no trace of "male-dominated" or "female-dominated" spaces; essentially all campus spaces are coed (with obvious exceptions like locker rooms or bathrooms). At Dartmouth, it's more complicated; some spaces are coed, but some are "male", and others are "female".</p>

15

<p>BalletGirl, I think you are on to something. Dartmouth is a much more physical place than other elites. William Blake would approve.
My son (recent graduate) wonders whether Dartmouth is the best place for a young woman. You can end up putting on a dress and a nice pair of heels and end up playing pong in a frat house basement of a Saturday night. His Dartmouth girlfriend thinks its a great place for women. Of course she grew up on the Great Plains near Canada driving a pickup truck and is an excellent shot.
My son is an urban, artsy type.
Ironically, his other serious Dartmouth girlfriend came from Missoula, Montana, and was used to white water rafting and swatting river rats with her oar.
I think you are going to enjoy your four years.</p>

16

<p>My D is an 09 from the South.
Some observations: Dartmouth was a little more traditional/familiar to her with frats and sororities - that division is in place in the South, some students like it, some don't, there are some other organizations that are more gender neutral/coed (marching band, for example, the bands at many big state unis here are like a big coed Greek organization without the letters). I'm not sure how much this influenced her choice, originally she was not going to join a sorority, but at D she changed her mind.</p>

<p>The situation is fluid and organic and developing. I think most of the women are happy with separate, but they want equal, which is an issue because of national organization rules about alcohol. Of course, from the outside perspective, this gives these young women a real issue to grapple with both with the administration and among themselves and between themselves and the male half of the school - it is a challenge that they are meeting and working through.</p>

<p>Finally, it is no doubt that Greek orgs have networking advantages that are tied to age and prestige. Dartmouth's alumna network is growing and becoming more powerful. There will always be jerks, male and female, of all ages.</p>

<p>D's first real Dartmouth experience was a preview party for ED acceptees and prospective students, given at Christmas during her senior year of high school. The one thing that struck her were "all the old guys in their sweaters". These alums were passionate about Dartmouth, and excited that she was attending, and it didn't matter to them that she was a girl - there are all kinds of people and all kinds of approaches. I don't think there are any other Ivies where the alums are as passionate about their school, except maybe Princeton, I hear they get a little crazy, too.</p>

17

<p>my brother just graduated from dartmouth and has made similar observations to the ones alluded to by the OP</p>

<p>he attributes it to the greek system, and the relationship between the frats and sororities</p>

18

<p>bump. 10 characters.</p>

19

<p>this fall my daughter will start her senior year at dartmouth. she has had little or nothing to do with sororities and only slightly more involvement with the frats. she has made a social life for herself outside those entities. i know she would say she feels she has had the same opportunities as her male counterparts at dartmouth. she did an internship in chile, an fsp in italy and she also did research for one of her professors for a term. she is a double major ( art history and physics) who has been involved in a mostly female dominated field and in a mostly male dominated field.</p>

20

<p>BalletGirl, my daughter just graduated and I fear putting words in her mouth, as she is not here right now to speak for herself, but I think Ian answer to your question, based on my observations of her experience and her comments to me, would be multi-part:</p>

<p>First, from the administrative, academic standpoint - I do not see that she felt women were second class citizens at all. Most of the ample opportunities extend uniformly to all and certain support groups (e.g. WISP, Women in Business) exist solely to assist women to succeed in traditionally male dominated fields. </p>

<p>Second, from the standpoint of the college experience - its a pretty inclusive place and she really loved it. One of the three valedictorians this year gave this and from what I understand, it resonated with students: Dartmouth</a> News - Dartmouth Commencement 2008 - 06/08/08. Dartmouth has room for lots and lots of passions and versions of success and students learn from, are inspired by, supported by and become FAST friends with fellow students across the board.</p>

<p>But to address what attitudes might have prompted the remarks you quote in your original post, I think Corbett has correctly identified it. I also think BigGreen's post correctly puts it in perspective today. Women at Dartmouth are not passive and unengaged -there are vocal groups of women and men on campus striving to bring certain issues concerns to the open For the most part your male counterparts will be enlightened or willing to be enlightened. They will be your fun companions. One thing I think Dartmouth gets very right with regard to the Fraternity/Sorority system is delaying rush until Sophomore year. DOC trips and Freshman year experiences bring first years together in tight bonds and foster respectful, caring relationships. </p>

<p>Not to say that the campus is devoid of jerks, nor that certain certain individual members of faculty or administration might seem to favor one gender over the other (it works both ways) but that my daughter did not feel a second class citizen at Dartmouth</p>