<p>Slipper1234 is obviously upset that his/her school (dartmouth) came in at #138, but that doesn't give him a right to fabricate. The truth is that that criteria is based on both grad, undergrad, and peer evaluation. Schools get points for faculty/staff ratio (for the entire school, not just grad programs), citations per faculty member (again, both grad and undergrad faculty) international students (do you see where I'm going with this?) and peer review (which is given the most weight). Now, with that criteria in mind, I'll put Berkeley and Dartmouth next to each other. Dartmouth scored about the same or higher in 3 of the 4 areas, but where it was hurt (badly) was in the peer review score. For example, Berkeley scored 665 (out of 1000), whereas Dartmouth scored 36 (also out of 1000). So Slipper, don't be mad at Berkeley, be mad at the world, because its the world that thinks Berkeley is 18 times better than Dartmouth.</p>
<p>Um...not I could care less that Dartmouth is not ranked highly here. I care when a ranking is misinterpreted. </p>
<p>The peer review is basically looking at the level of research. I would say Berkeley research is much better than Dartmouth. I would say Ohio state is too. Dartmouth/ Brown/ Rice/ Notre Dame/ UVA etc aren't large research powerhouses. That is who gets the edge here. Where does Amherst College fit in here? It doesnt! Does that mean Ohio State is better than Amherst? Go ahead and send your kids to OSU. </p>
<p>I think Berkeley is 100 times better than Dartmouth as a grad school because for the most part dartmouth grad school's DON'T EXIST. The peer review is scientists rating other scientists. I am shocked Dartmouth beat or met Berkeley in some of those four categories. That is amazing considering the size of Dartmouth (ie no grad schools, less research).</p>
<p>Dartmouth is an undergrad focused institution with some of the best students in the world that sends its graduates off to top graduate schools and has some of the best recruiters on campus. Dartmouth doens't even have graduate programs in the social sciences. Its why its so amazing, UNDERGRADS get the priority. </p>
<p>So yes Berkeley is a far better place to do research than Dartmouth. I would go there for biology grad school over dartmouth in a second (to be brutally honest Dartmouth undergrads almost look down on some of the grad students - very few dartmouth undergrads stay for grad school). But in my opinion Dartmouth is a far better undergraduate institution.</p>
<p>Let me simplify:</p>
<p>Dartmouth COLLEGE undergrad (out of ten): 10
Dartmouth grad programs: 2
Total "University": 12</p>
<p>The UNIVERSITY of California-Berkeley undergrad: 8
Berkeley grad programs: 9
Total University: 17</p>
<p>Amherst COLLEGE undergrad: 10
Amherst grad: 0
Total University: 10</p>
<p>Not hard to see why a school looking at Research-oriented information would find Berkeley to be so strong. Once again, UCSF is top ten here and has no undergrad!</p>
<p>"The peer review is basically looking at the level of research"</p>
<p>Oh really? Please show me where you got that information, because its not in the THES.</p>
<p>"I am shocked Dartmouth beat or met Berkeley in some of those four categories. That is amazing considering the size of Dartmouth (ie no grad schools, less research)."</p>
<p>You shouldn't be shocked, because factulty/staff ratio, international students and faculty publications deals with both grad and undergrad. </p>
<p>This ranking, like many others, is a glorified popularity contest. Just look at how its weighted, with the vast majority of points going towards peer evaluation. If USnews weighted in a simiar matter then Berkley would probably be in the top 5 in their rankings too. You can make all the excuses you want, but facts are facts, and the fact is that Berkeley's peers think it is one of the best University's in the world. Its your problem if your personal bias wont let you at least recognize that these rankings show how the international communtiy feels about Berkeley.</p>
<p>where is university of rochester?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Just look at how its weighted, with the vast majority of points going towards peer evaluation. If USnews weighted in a simiar matter then Berkley would probably be in the top 5 in their rankings too.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>HYPSM make up the top five (with Caltech in there sometimes too, I think) when you sort the USNews rankings by peer review score.</p>
<p>For anyone who is interested, here is the Times' 2005 ranking.</p>
<p>Rank (Prev Rank) University, Country</p>
<p>1 (1) Harvard University, US
2 (3) Massachusetts Institute of Technology, US
3 (6) Cambridge University, UK
4 (5) Oxford University, UK
5 (7) Stanford University, US
6 (2) University of California, Berkeley, US
7 (8) Yale University, US
8 (4) California Institute of Technology, US
9 (9) Princeton University, US
10 (27) Ecole Polytechnique, France
11 (52) Duke University, US
11 (11) London School of Economics, UK
13 (14) Imperial College London, UK
14 (23) Cornell University, US
15 (17) Beijing University, China
16 (12) Tokyo University, Japan
17 (20) University of California, San Francisco, US
17 (13) University of Chicago, US
19 (22) Melbourne University, Australia
20 (19) Columbia University, US</p>
<p>If you can't tell the difference between a University's reputation and undergrad reputation I give up.</p>
<p>So you think that when people give their peer assesment score they can make a clear distinction between undergrad and grad?</p>
<p>Absolutely. If Peer Assessment is based on the overall University, Dartmouth and Brown are given way too high Peer Assesment scores in USNEWS (4.5). </p>
<p>I am also not saying that ranking universities is a useless endeavor, in fact it might be helpful for science majors looking to try and get involved with heavy duty research. It think its much less helpful for kids wanting to go to professional graduate schools or go through recruiting. Here the Undergrad value matters more. </p>
<p>The research university (Michigan, Cal, UCLA, etc) vs. undergrad focused (Dartmouth, Brown, LACs, UVA, etc) debate occurs often on these boards. My take is that for some the undergrad focused schools are much better, for others the access to cutting edge research that happens at the large research schools is better.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"The peer review is basically looking at the level of research"</p>
<p>Oh really? Please show me where you got that information, because its not in the THES
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think this can be reasonably inferred by the simple fact that the LAC's are (in many cases) nowhere to be found, for the simple reason that LAC's don't do research. For example, in New England, you will get guffaws of laughter if you insinuate that UMass or UConn are 'better' schools than Williams, Amherst, or Wellesley. Clearly UMass and UConn are better research schools than those LAC's, but very few people are going to want to go there instead of those LAC's unless money was the issue. </p>
<p>And the fact of the matter is, Dartmouth is basically a LAC. It just happens to have some graduate programs (like a business school and a medical school), but it's really a LAC. So is Brown. And confusingly, certain "LAC's" also have graduate programs. Bryn Mawr, for example, is classified as a LAC, but offers PhD's. I personally think the only reason why Brown and Dartmouth are considered to be 'research universities' are because they are in the Ivy League. If that wasn't the case, they would be placed in the LAC category where they really belong. </p>
<p>
[quote]
and the fact is that Berkeley's peers think it is one of the best University's in the world. Its your problem if your personal bias wont let you at least recognize that these rankings show how the international communtiy feels about Berkeley.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't think anybody is seriously disputing that Berkeley is an extremely well-recognized name, internationally or nationally. The issue is what that recognition really means. For example, I see that last year, Berkeley got a higher ranking than Stanford. However, I think it's safe to say that for undergrad, more people would prefer to go to Stanford than to Berkeley, unless money was the issue. I see that this year, Berkeley is still ranked higher than Yale or Princeton . But again, I would say that unless money was the issue, more people would prefer to go to Yale or Princeton than Berkeley for undergrad. {Graduate school, particularly PhD programs, are a different story}</p>
<p>That is the most retarded rankings I have ever seen.</p>
<p>Slipper, so why then, if people can differinciate between undergrad and grad peer assesment, did Berkeley rank #6 in USNEws UNDERGRAD peer assesment ranking? I also think its interesting that when you give examples of the big research universities (which you imply are not as good for undergrads) you use three publics but fail to mention the two biggest, most important research universities: Harvard and Stanford. Are they inferior to Dartmouth as well?</p>
<p>And Sakky, just because people would rather go to one school rather than the other doesn't mean that one school is "better" than the other. Harvard, Princeton, Yale, and Stanford are all more prestigious (and private), and I think kids are drawn to the most selective and prestigious schools just so they can say they got in. Thats not so say that everyone does this, and I'm definitely not saying that Berkeley is "better" than those schools I just mentioned, but I will say that no matter how many rankings put Berkeley above those schools, because Berkeley is a big public, people are going to choose the private school 8 out of 10 times. Its just human nature to want to go to the place that is percieved to be more selective and prestigious. For example, do you honestly think that Dartmouth or Brown would be nearly as popular if they weren't in the Ivy League? If they were just two old schools on the east coast, what would be thier draw? What programs do they have that are in the top 5 in the country? And don't get me wrong, I think both of those schools are AMAZING. Seriously, they are two great schools, but my point is that they get to piggy back on Harvard, Yale and Princeton. For example, when someone goes to Harvard they say, "I go to Harvard," but when people go to Dartmouth or Cornell or Brown, alot of times I hear "I go to an Ivy League school." Why is that?</p>
<p>Actually, that is just your perception. I have never heard a Dartmouth, Brown, or Cornell student say "I go to an Ivy League school." In fact, as someone who attended Columbia and Dartmouth, the Dartmouth students cared a whole lot less about being Ivy and a whole lot more about just being there. Dartmouth has one of the most loyal alumni networks and happliest alumni in the world. </p>
<p>ALSO, as someone who has gone to both a large research university (Columbia) and a smaller LACish school (Dartmouth), I can honestly say the education at Dartmouth was much better. I never had a class, even a gut, with more than 100 students. Senior year I had multiple seminars with less than five students, I had TWO thesis advisors, I got a 8K grant (from D) for my thesis research, and to top it off when I started a company they gave me a year's worth of office space, board of directors, and access to a network I could not even imagine. And when it came time to apply to grad school I had my choice of countless professors to ask for recommendations, I had been to many of their homes! When I worked as a consultant I could see how strong that network really was, Dartmouth students have a loyalty and a connection to the school that is even beyond my understanding. Anywhere you go people are jumping to help you. I have an email system that I can look up any alumni or student by name and email the instantly, most respond. You are a member of a club of talented individuals, its almost cultish. I have a brother at a top 5 state school with an incredibly active alumni base, its a very different concept. I know how that THAT is why you go to Dartmouth, Brown, Amherst, Williams, whatever. Your professor might be 90% as published, but you get 100% of their attention. I never had a T/A once. </p>
<p>And now at a top 5 grad school I see the power even more, it seems like an inordinate amount of students come from the undergrad focused schools. My take is the students have amazing recs, then amazing jobs (helped by the network). </p>
<p>As for UCB having "top 5 programs", why does it matter again? Businesses and MBA programs could care less about the rank of econ programs, med schools don't care about bio programs ranks, law schools look at overall programs quality not major rank. For those applying to specific grad schools, recommendations and a high GPA from a top school are key, as well as research. Schools like Dartmouth and Brown excel in these criteria. Working extensively with a slightly less famous prof wins over being one of five students working for a published prof with no time for you. Only is very specific areas does the university rank matter, usually vocationally oriented skill areas like engineering, film, music, etc. In those cases, I highly recommend going to the school with the best programs, i.e. Julliard, USC film, Illinois engineering</p>
<p>I would say that, yes, academically Dartmouth is better than Harvard or Stanford for an undergrad. </p>
<p>And would Dartmouth and Brown be so selective and prestigious if it weren't Ivy. Of course it would. Isn't Amherst selective and prestigious?</p>
<p>Berkeley has a high "peer assessment" because it is a top research school, Dartmouth and Brown have a high peer assessment because of the strength of the undergraduate education. You are comparing apples to oranges, but this is the best system they have to do it.</p>
<p>Like I said, I think Dartmouth is a great school, so I'm not surprised that you're happy with the education you've recieved and the connections that you've made. However, I do take umbridge with your mind reading. Saying that Berkeley has a high peer assesment score because of research and Dartmouth's high score is because of its undergrad quality doesn't exactly win me over. First, you yourself said that people could make a clear distinction between undergrad and grad when they do peer assessments, so why then would Berkeley's peers give it such high marks when they know they are specifically talking about undergrad, as they have consistently done in the Usnews rankings? Second, I could just as easily (and with just as much proof) say that Berkeley's high score is due to its undergrad quality and Dartmouth's high score is because its in the Ivy League and has connections to alot of other, better schools. As far as class size, mine average about 25-30 people, which includes seminars with ten people as well as large lectures with 200 people. But on average, I'd say 25-30. Berkeley, which has many top 5 programs, also has the faculty to warrent top five rankings. I've taken classes taught by the former Poet laureate of the united states, as well as writers who've won the national book award, been given the MacArthur Genius Award, been nominated for Oscars, written or edited the texts that you probably read from when you were a student,and published countless articles that form public opinion on hot button issues. And nearly every single one of them has had office hours or been more than happy to talk about school or anything else. Going to Berkeley also allows me to see concerts on campus ranging from Bob Dylan to classical piano, hear lectures from politicians and policy makers, meat the most famous and respected writers of our time, and watch the Cal Bears destroy stanford on the football field. Nearly every day something exciting is going on on campus or there are job fairs with recruiters from top companies from every field of employment you could imagine. So yeah, I'm pretty happy with my decision to come to Berkeley. I suppose we can just agree to disagree.</p>
<p>We get the same opportunities at Dartmouth - Dave Chapelle, The Roots, Kanye West, Ang Lee (who I had lunch with), Howard Dean, you name it. And the scholars that visit campus are totally accessible, there are only 4000 people! I also totally disagree that Dartmouth is connected to better schools (HYP), I would instead argue that Dartmouth and Princeton have the best undergraduate education among the Ivies since they have so few grad students relative to undergrads.</p>
<p>Anyway lets agree to disagree.</p>
<p>the worst ranking ever.</p>
<p>UMASS? you know when the ranking is bad when.....</p>
<p>i think dartmouth is the ivy to go if you value sports as much as academics. <em>shrugs</em> i wouldn't be so sure, though.</p>
<p>p.s. i agree it's a great school</p>
<p>...or it could be that THE University didn't get the ranking that you wanted...</p>
<p>GentlemanandScholar, if you think american employers actually respect that ranking, you are kidding. any employer who thinks an average kid from UTexas Austin is more valuable than an average kid from Dartmouth should not be qualified to recruit.</p>
<p>employers are all i care about. </p>
<p>good night everyone.</p>
<p>Wow, what a desire to learn and expand yourself! I'm sure Jefferson would be proud.</p>