Worried about daughter's indecisiveness

Parents Forum
21

Hmm… Your strategy may work if one or more of these statements is true: 1) your D has a large stash of cash; 2) your D is an exceptional student and will receive full-ride/near full-ride scholarships at the colleges where she applies; 3) your D applies to local, regional colleges and lives at home; 4) your D is willing to exit college with debt balance requiring a multiyear (decades?) payback. Have you run the NPC at the colleges your D is examining/visiting? That’s a good reality check on finances.

Using collegedata.com information, the Lawrence cost of attendance is $54,000/year. Average merit award there is $18,000/year. If your D is the average student and receives no need based aid (for example), she will need to come up with the majority of a $140,000 four year cost of attendance. She will only be able to take out about $25,000 in loans (total over four years) on her own…

OK. Make sure she knows about net price calculators and the onerous nature of college debt.

If I’m understanding the intent of this statement correctly, it sounds like a scenario for disappointment in the spring of her senior year of high school. She can get a good feel for the cost of attendance now by running the net price calculators. Assuming your family’s financial situation is typical, these are fairly accurate. If your D waits until financial aid letters have been received and admissions deadlines have passed to realize that the schools she has been admitted to aren’t financially viable, she may not be too happy. Best to use the estimated cost of attendance information at a metric during the college application decision process.

22

Like with any complex process you need a master plan, so you need a central database with data, descriptions and school pluses and minuses. Perception about a school visit must be challenged by fact and reason.

You will often find likes and dislikes after a visit to be more poltical than factual. For example, “the tour guide was weird”. Well, as a parent you cannot accept that as reasonable criticism. Likewise, “I really liked that school because the kids were chilling in the Quad.” Sorry that doesn’t count.

You also must seriously examine a student’s realistic chance of acceptance based on numbers, not your thoughts on how talented your child is. Many times a student’s dislike for a school is based on this, correctly and incorrectly. Notre Dame is seriously difficult to get in so perhaps a story she heard about a student she thinks is better qualified spooked her.

I suggest you start a spread sheet for both universities and liberal arts colleges.

Once you organize the process and force it to based on facts, it gets much better.

I will say that with girls it is more difficult. What motivates a 17 or 18 year old boy is much less complex. I am not trying to be sexist but it is the truth.

23

I agree with others who say finances need to move to the top of the list, and you need to make it clear what your contribution will be. Every year on this forum, there are parents and kids who are heartbroken because they can’t make the finances work at a school or schools they had their heart set on, If you look through the Parents of 2015 forum, you will see many parents with really bright and talented kids who worked hard to navigate the financial side of the equation so their kids had good choices to pick from in the end.

As far as her “indecisiveness”, it is early. My daughter was the same way. I helped her narrow the list for visits during spring break. We picked schools that we thought would be a good fit academically and where the finances had a chance of working. We did not pick any schools that didn’t give merit aid - that wasn’t an option. Each school was unique, either in size, setting, curriculum, etc. She could see herself at any of them, Truthfully, she probably would have been happy at any of them. After a tour, I would say nothing. She needed to think it through for a while. She could not articulate what she liked or disliked about each school during the process. I think it bothered her that she had no strong feeling for or against any of the schools. I was getting a little concerned nothing would jump out at her , but I tried not to talk about it too much. However, when we attended accepted students days at the various schools, one really stood out. I didn’t expect that as she, too, seemed indecisive.

Articulating her feelings is not a strength, so I just had to go with what little I was getting from her, knowing that she could be happy at multiple places and there was no one perfect choice. Your daughter still has senior year; things will probably clarify for her in time.

24

How about making a list of attributes she is looking for and /or has liked/disliked about schools? No more than 10 should be helpful without ruling out the vast majority of schools. For example preferred sIze, geographic location, presence of Greek life, majors available, sports importance, selectivity, graduation rates, budget, etc. Since she has seen some schools she should be able to begin to articulate which schools she liked/disliked and why. It is early for her to Finalize her application list but not too early for her to have at least some criteria for what she is looking for.

25

Let me suggest something else, plan the next few visits where you or your spouse go, not both and see if the dynamics are different. In our experience when my wife went the dynamic was more open, more factual and less emotional. I have two boys and this was more pronounced with my younger son.

26

This may be what I call the cereal aisle problem. There are too many choices and she may not have enough limits or constraints around the choices, so it’s all so confusing. It’s okay to place limits on her list right now. Cost is usually the main constraint; her current grades and test scores may provide another; and distance from home is yet another. It may simply be she needs more guidance, not less.

What are her grades and test scores? Is she looking at safety schools? Reaches? Matches? (or another way of looking at things - has she looked at schools with varying acceptance rates or just those with less than 35% acceptance rates?) I am a firm believer that the student needs to find 2-4 safety schools - places she likes, where she will be likely accepted (her stats are well above the 75th percentile and the acceptance rate is above 50%), are easily affordable FIRST. Then look for matches and targets. BTW, safety schools do not have to be an instate directional university. D chose two out of state private colleges.

I’ve just watched a child get accepted to several great colleges and had to decline them all and choose between two instate schools because his parents did not take the cost aspect seriously enough. It was heartbreaking to watch both child and parents realize that. They just assumed that 1) he would get into great schools, and he did; and 2) these schools would offer them a LOT of merit and/or financial aid, and these schools did not.

So, I’m echoing others that cost considerations should come up front, not at the tail end of the college application process. This is stressful enough, writing and submitting applications, waiting for responses to add yet another stressor on top. Tell your daughter what you are willing to spend.

27

Post #6: you don’t want to badger her?

Then she probably shouldn’t watch this:

28

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oVAZXZfIlNk

29

Since the only limit the OP places is that the student must have visited, then I assume there is absolutely no limit on the cost? $10. a year or $110,000. a year is all the same to the Op? Student is lucky to have parents that money is no object(post 5). Grades don’t matter either? Student can get all A’s or get 3 D’s and an incomplete, and it’s all the same to the Op? Op will continue to pay with no limits on grades or length of time in school? And I presume every subsequent offspring will have the same “money is no limit” offer, in all fairness? Correct?
Wonderful student has only 1 restriction- a visit.

But if there are other restrictions such as what I’ve mentioned or others, student needs to know NOW in full, to make a fair assessment of college choices.

30

I don’t want to pile on here, and I don’t want to make assumptions, and I understand that people tend to want to be guarded about the info they give on a public board, but honestly, what you’ve said so far makes no sense to me.

You have a 17 yr old kid who has some kind of a job and she has been told that she is “mostly” responsible for financing college? What does this even mean? If you have established some figure that you can and will contribute, you should tell her what it is. At that point it is fine to partner with her to figure out strategies that include FA, potential merit, guaranteed awards, etc. As has been urged here, you and she MUST run Net Price Calculators on college web sites. Even if she has $250K college fund at her disposal, she might not want to burn through all of it for undergrad.

You refuse to allow her to apply to any school she hasn’t visited? What? Why on earth? Lots of kids can’t visit every school they are seriously interested in: they visit if they are accepted. A perfectly reasonable strategy. It is also perfectly normal for kids to like different kinds of schools for different reasons.

This is your oldest child. How did you develop this “policy”? Based on the actions of a niece? How have you “found it to be fair” when you’ve never seen it in action with one of your kids?

Have you made any attempt to help her put together a list of safeties, matches, and reaches, including financial safeties?

I agree that this sounds like a disaster in the making, from the info you have shared so far. I wish you would either be clearer, or rethink your course of action.

31

SlackerMomMD’s post is right on in my opinion. The list of schools applied to needs to be constructed around realistic financial considerations. Significant under graduate debt is an enormous mistake! Community Colleges, in state publics and big merit aid schools should be considered versus options that would hamper a young person for decades.
The resources are here to be assisted with those considerations. Providing the details that have been inquired about would enable those of us here to attempt to help you further.

32

If finances are an issue, absolutely make that clear and be specific, as all have said.

Beyond that, don’t worry yet. Let her have some time to digest what she has seen and decide what she likes.

I had one easy kid who knew what he wanted, accepted, and was 100% on board with his choice----no second thoughts. And then I have one hard kid, who finally chose at 10:30 pm on May first and is still wondering if he did the right thing!

With number two, who kept going round and round, I just asked questions to help him clarify his thinking. I kept reassuring him that his finalists were all good choices, he could be happy at any of them.

33

First if all, my junior has expressed interest in our flagship, which is pretty much a given. Other than that, about a week ago she mentioned another school she thinks she might like. So your D is way ahead if she has cone up with multiple schools to visit

Second, you absolutely need to be clearer about how much you can pay. Saying you cam make things work but she will be responsible doesn’t make sense. Money has to come from somewhere and unless she has a highly unusual job, your daughters job isn’t going to cover it.

And she should be able to apply without visiting. You wouldn’t have to rush to visit in fall. She could visit in spring if she gets in and the money works. Lots of kids like to do a second visit at that point anyway, for their top couple of choices.

34

I am finding the OP’s post confusing because there is so much information missing, but I understand that people may not want to post all of their personal details. Here is what we did ( my D is a senior): sophomore year we visted schools because we were in the area visiting siblings. Junior year we visited many schools and narrowed down big/small/ urban, etc. Money was discussed and was part of the equation. We used the NPC ( they were extremely accurate for us- within $50) and created a list of schools that would give her merit aid or FA. We were not comfortable going above a certain number, and that number was discussed. She received large merit awards at several schools and ultimately chose a school that gave us very good FA and will continue to give us good FA based on our particular circumstances ( schools differ on FA awards and how they calculate those awards). I may be totally off here, but this student does not seem to have financial parameters set and may be hesitating because she is confused. It sounds like money is no object, but then it sounds like the D is paying for most of college herself. Does she have a lot of money saved?

35

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This is your oldest child. How did you develop this “policy”?


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lololol…I wondered the same thing. I guess its: “we make a rule based on - well - nothing - and we insist on it being kept, because it’s our policy.”

Seriously, this mom sounds anxious, rigid, and unreasonable.

36

OP, please take seriously the advice to look at finances first.

As to indecisiveness, how about just ask her to list, on her own time, what she liked / disliked about each school, no matter how silly. A pattern may emerge about what things turn her on / off and it may point to a general theme: maybe she likes a beautiful traditionsl campus, or maybe she likes an urban campus. Maybe she likes rah-rah sports, or quiet nerdy atmosphere.Etc.

Based on finances and likes, build a list of safeties first. Not necessarily from ones you’ve toured since you still have time to tour.

37

Every family needs to find there own way. I will share with you what worked for my very indecisive daughter. We used the initial round of visits to determine general likes and dislikes- but not about the specific schools, more what she learned she liked and disliked in a school. For example, in our initial round we visited big state schools all the way down to small LAC’s in both urban, suburban and rural settings. We found out that she preferred a small town/ rural LAC with a student population between 3,00-5,000, was turned off by the greek system, and wanted an outdoorsy active campus.

From there we made a list of schools that mostly fit this criteria (she also had geographic qualifications- so we were able to eliminate most of the southern US) and added in her interest in majoring in biology or chemistry, and interest in either music performance or swimming… From that big list, Mom and Dad did some research on cost, financial aid, availability of merit and talent based scholarships etc (the boring stuff). We made our list of safety schools, fit and reaches. We also made an eliminated pile of schools we knew we could not afford.

Last June, we asked her to sit down at the computer and go through 2 schools a day (videos are great for this generation) until she had complied her own lists of schools she either wanted to revisit, or schedule a new visit. Other than one school on our eliminated list, they were all on our fit or reach list as well. Our big issue was with her safety schools, and happily they were not needed. In the end, she applied to 9, was accepted by 8, received amazing merit from 2, and after a heartbreaking month of indecision, picked a wonderful school.

She did apply to 3 schools we had not visited, and after acceptance did visit them (one paid to fly her out). I suggest that if you find a school that fits great, don’t eliminate it just because you cannot visit before application deadlines. Of the 9 she applied to, by February, after all the application due dates, my daughter had finally decided she was more interested in pursuing music than swimming, which basically eliminated two of the schools she had visited and applied. Two of the schools we did not visit prior to application where schools with high music involvement, and ultimately were #2 and #3 on her list. My daughter seemed to grow up/ change a lot their senior year.

One last note- overnight visits after you know if they are accepted are extraordinarily helpful. At that point, my daughter KNEW she could go to that school and seemed much more invested. She totally took the reins, and led with questions, talked to professors and interacted in a way she never did as a Junior nor previously on her fall visits.

Good Luck!

38

I imagine you might be a little overwhelmed by all these posts and information, and I encourage you to take some time to digest it all. There are some really intelligent posters who have contributed their two cents here, and even though they are not necessarily answering the exact question you were asking, they have the best intentions of steering you away from a huge train wreck that you might not be able to see just yet.

This whole process is interwoven with all kinds of hot buttons. You have got finances, which up til now most parents have probably kept private from their children. It can be hard to open up with your high school student about income, other debt you have, financial responsibilities like caring for a parent, business you own that is draining personal money from your family, etc.

You’ve also got communication issues with a teenager who may be trying to become more independent, have more control over their own life. And you have stress. It’s bad enough that the student is struggling to keep up GPA, study for SAT/ACT, juggle AP classes and maybe dual enrollment classes, and can’t forget those extracurriculars that eat away at any free time a student might have. And the consequences of dropping the ball in any of these areas can make or break your college admissions decisions.

I hope you are able to step back and think about how focusing on finances up front can serve your family well in the long run. Take time to read through stories here on this forum of students holding multiple acceptances to colleges they can not afford to attend.

Best of luck to you and your family in this process. It can be a wild ride, but it is worth it.

39

Op,
Frankly I think that most kids don’t really have a strong opinion about some of the details of college selection. Most just go to their closest or further state U. And often the state U is the cheapest option if you are in the middle to upper class.
If that’s the case with your D, and if the local state U has a few majors that she might be interested in, then be happy with your good fortune that your college search will be less stressful than for other folks.

Also you get a skewed vision here on cc where we all like to split hairs on every program. Many kiddos do not have a strong opinion and will grow where they are planted.

Just make sure that she has a financial and academic safety college.

40

OP, Sounds like you are doing what we pretty much did with both our kids. We looked at all sorts of schools (big/small, suburban, city) so the kids could get a feel for what they liked. Since your daughter is picking out the schools to look at it sounds like she’s forming opinions and even if she can’t express them to you, it doesn’t mean she doesn’t have any. Eventually, she will have to pick what she wants to apply to.

I’m not sure why you limit it to only those she’s visited. We found that we couldn’t get to all the schools ahead of time (and we did get to a lot of schools!). We got to most. There were a couple of “this sounds like a solid maybe” schools that we decided to apply to and decided that if the offer was right and it was a serious contender, we would tour during decision time (and in some cases we did, others we did not). I wouldn’t do too many this way, but I wouldn’t rule it out completely.

Finally, I think we are all confused as to what you mean by your daughter is “mainly responsible for her finances”. Do you mean that she is paying?! Or simply that given a budget that you are providing she will have to sort through the financial aspect and figure out how to afford different choices?