worried about my d

Parents Forum
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<p>my daughter is a rising senior in a very cut-throat ib program. she wants to attend school out of state but both her mother and i agree that attending school out of state will be a waste unless she attends one that is in the top tier(if she goes in-state everything will be free and we already have financial difficulties). i want my daughter to achieve her goal of going out of state and want to help her as much as possible. my fear is that she has already messed up her chances of attending a top tier school beacause of her grades. her freshman year she received a c in algrebra 2 and bs in spanish and history all during her second semester. her sophomore year she received bs in geometry and physics her first semester and bs in drivers education (how bad does this b look?) and trig her second semester. her junior year she received bs in spanish and pre-calculus and will most likely receive bs for those two classes her second smester as well. all of her classes are honors or ib/ap. she has dedicated herself to a few ecs but has done amazingly well in all of them. in one of them, she is among the best in nation. </p>

<p>are top tier schools out of range because of her poor grades?
what type of sat scores will she need to outweigh her grades?</p>

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<p>I doubt any school is out of range, though even with a 4.0 the top tier schools are tough, just on the numbers. Being "among the best in the nation" at something, anything, certainly helps... & if she is the best in the nation at a <em>collegiate sport</em> this would really up the odds.</p>

<p>My D is an athlete going to a top LAC, very selective, and was <em>far</em> from straight As (3.5 or so) though she took all the hardest classes, and all the suggested loads, including 4 maths & 5 sciences even though shes a 'humanities person.'</p>

<p>There is also the question of grade inflation. If your D has a few Bs and yet has a top 10% or top 5% class rank, the B's are mitigated somewhat.</p>

<p>I would suggest:</p>

<p>(1) Think about schools offering Merit Aid (see thread now on Parents Forum.) Many of these are very good schools offering an out of state experience at close to in-state numbers.
(2) Find out if your D's nationally ranked level EC is popular at one of the top schools that interest you. Might be a great entree.</p>

<p>Since it appears that in-state she is a shoo-in, I would focus on seeking out great appealing schools out of state that would be afforable and would offer sufficient 'extras' so you would feel good about any extra costs. If you could be more specific on what the ECs are, what state your are in (or the 49 you are not in!) and what sort of school your D finds appealing (Univ, LAC, large, small, urban, rural) you will get many ideas here.</p>

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<p>The question about having her achieve SAT scores that outweigh her grades is a difficult one. Popular opinion is that very high SAT scores without matching grades might represent a student who has the ability, but lacks the motivation to achieve. Conversely, low SATs with high grades might represent grade inflation/non-competitive HS. I don't think there's much room for grades and SATs to land too far apart. </p>

<p>Where does your D rank overall? Is she in the top 10%? I believe a good rank will overcome the grades more than her SAT scores.</p>

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<p>pointslopeform, how is the counseling at your daughter's school? They should have the stats of the former students and where they were accepted (including this year). There is a thread near the top of this page that lists schools with good merit aid.</p>

<p>As for need based aid, if your financial situation is that bad, you may get help.</p>

<p>If your daughter is the best in the nation or close to it in an EC, she has a chance almost everywhere. Schools will cut someone some slack for "best in the nation".</p>

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<p>You need to talk to the school counselor about where kids with your D's grades usually end up getting accepted to college. That should give you the best idea. But the SAT scores are going to be important too, and until they are in, it is hard to suggest colleges. </p>

<p>As for the very top lottery ticket schools, it is very likely that she is out of the running unless she comes from a school where many kids do get in, so deflated is the grade scale. I don't know too many highschools in that category, in fact, I don't know any. The most selective schools will want SAT2s as well as SAT1s, and frankly the only kids I have seen with lower grades getting into the top schools are highly sought athletes. </p>

<p>My niece did get into Cornell with relatively low SATs, but her SAT2s were very high, she had top scores on the many AP tests, very good ECs, and top grades. She had to be top 5 in her class at a competive private school where the top kids tend to go to the more selective colleges. So that really counted heavily.</p>

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<p>both her mother and i agree that attending school out of state will be a waste unless she attends one that is in the top tier>></p>

<p>Where do you live (state) and what are her options there? What is your definition of "top tier"? Top 10? Top 25? Top 50? Top 100? Does your daughter (or you) have preferences about whether she'd like a university or liberal arts college? How about size? What is she potentially interested in studying? If you qualified for financial aid or she could win a merit scholarship would you consider "lesser" schools out of state?</p>

<p>And, most importantly, how does your daughter feel about all of this? We get so many kids here wishing that their parents would be open to other possibilities besides "state school or top school" that I urge you to at least think about the many excellent possibilities in between that may be more affordable than you expect after financial aid and merit money is added to the mix.</p>

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<p>I agree that if she is among the best in the nation at anything she will have a good chance anywhere. </p>

<p>IMO, the b in drivers ed is irrelevant.</p>

<p>In general, I don't find her grades catastrophic. Obviously, everyone would love to have all As, but the total package is the main thing. If she is taking the toughest courses and those are her worst grades then I think that her grades do not rule her out. </p>

<p>An applicant who is among the best in the nation at something, but has a few bad grades, is much more competitive IMO than someone who has all As but is otherwise undistinguished. HYPS can fill themselves with top one percent people who have above 1550 SATs (old) but they choose not to.</p>

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<p>P.S. She can improve her chances even more by applying early decision a place that attaches particular value to her area of excellence. Will she be able to identify a preferred college, and introduce herself to the people there who would be most interested in her excellence, in time to apply ED?</p>

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<p>There's no need to worry. What makes you think your daughter MUST attend a top tier school? There are thousands of schools out there.</p>

<p>You need to read the "stop the insanity" thread:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=52080%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=52080&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>You should be old enough to know that the world will not owe your daughter a living just because of her academic performance. Conversely, she doesn't owe the world a straight-A transcript. The Academic Performance Cult is every bit as repressive as the Religious Right and other religious fundamentalist movements. I discussed that at:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=52741%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=52741&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Don't worry about the GPA as much as class rank.</p>

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<p>First pointslope, welcome! The college application process is a stressful and complicated event. You'll get lots of information from this board, most of it good!</p>

<p>A mixture of A's and B's plus an odd C along the way will not keep your daughter out of a top college. She seems to be doing a lot things right -- most rigorous program, (which is also IB), plus a national level EC that she's done amazingly well at. Top colleges, especially the liberal arts colleges, evaluate applicants holistically -- rank, scores, grades, recommendations, essays, EC's, talents, and minority and economic hooks -- are all weighed and strengths can compensate for weaknesses. For the very top selective colleges like HYPSM, this may be less true as most (but not all) accepted student seem to have everything. For other highly selective universities and LACs the student's whole package is appraised.</p>

<p>It's difficult to give you a straight numerical cutting off point for the SATs. With the addition of the writing section to this year's SATI, I don't think anyone really knows what the new equivalent to the old 1300/1400/1500 will be. One thing that may effect your daughter is a lopsided profile. If she's getting B's in math but A's in humanities and humanities are her love and future, getting higher scores in the verbal and writing section would be acceptable and consistent.</p>

<p>I think the best place to start is with her guidance counselor. Where have kids with similar GPAs and IB diplomas ended up? How does she compare? Then come back to this board with a general list of schools that she (and you) have targeted. </p>

<p>If money is the reason that you're hesitating on sending her to a less well known school, then you need to get a better idea of what your options are. Are you eligible for need-based aid? If yes, then it may be less of an issue than you think. If no, then you should consider schools that are known to be generous with merit aid.</p>

<p>The next thing you need to do is to start shoring up the intangibles on her application -- the essays, the recommendations, the EC resume. If she's an athlete, then relax, you've won the jackpot! If not, her EC still sounds intriguing and that would be a good focal point.</p>

<p>Your daughter could get an excellent education at any one of dozens of universities and colleges in America, but only you and she can decide which ones fulfill what you are looking for. When you say that you'd rather have her go to her state school instead of a non-top-tier college, you may be right, especially if finances are involved, but, of course it depends on your state.</p>

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<p>she should have a good rank. if i'm correct, her school ranks all the ib students equally in the class except for the top two. unfortunately, none of her ecs are sports, but i'm positive she could be recruited to debate for a school (if schools do this or if she even wants to do this).</p>

<p>unfortuantely, the counseling at her school is very poor. the attitude is that if you're not a 4.0, then you don't stand a chance at a top university (despite the fact that her school is very, very challenging). the good news is that she is interested in following her strong point: humanities. specifically, she seems interested in politics, foreign languages, etc. she would like an urban environment and has expressed in interest in both georgetown and berkeley (we're out of state). she, like her mother and i, is just concerned that she won't be able to compete with her gpa and only hope that others from her school won't take her place at the schools she seems interested in. </p>

<p>i hope this clears up any questions and thank you so much for all of your responses! we really are thankful for them!</p>

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<p>Keep in mind that if she applies ED, she will not be able to compare aid offers. Since you say that finances may be a problem, I do not suggest that she apply ED. She could apply EA, though, which is non binding, and does give some advantage.</p>

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<p>pointslopeform, there are advantages beyound academics to attending a school out of state, or out of area. If she looks in a different geographic area, some LAC may extend more merit $$ if they have few or none from your state. She would be exposed to a more diversified student body at many of the schools. She could have a different life experience, which is a lot of what college is about. My 2 cents.</p>

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<p>If you need serious financial aid, UC Berkeley as an out of state student probably isn't a good choice. Estimated cost for out of state students is well over $30,000 a year and there is only limited financial aid beyond loans available for out of state students. Add in the fact that UCB is really a lottery school for out of state students in terms of admissions and you are probably right not to encourage her to look there.</p>

<p>One nice thing about this discussion group is that allows parents to fill in the gaps when it comes to weak guidance counseling at a school. Keep asking questions and you'll probably find she has many more options than you think.</p>

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<p>Hmmm. That "ranks all the IB students equally except the top two" is not going to be helpful at all, I don't think. Instead of a plus, it's a null.</p>

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<p>Athletic scholarships are granted in connection with early decisions. If similar scholarships are not available for debate, then northstarmom is right about not applying ED.</p>

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<p>If she is already a rising senior do you have any SAT or PSAT scores so far?</p>

<p>Gtown is very competetive, has EA but not ED, and according to the guides "looks faviorably on students from Catholic HSs" in their admit decisions. There are many excellent urban schools that are in the top 20-75 (whatever that means...sigh...) that are worth considering. If she likes D.C. ---GW or American are worth checking out. Boston--try Northeastern or BU, Phila--Drexel. NYU?</p>

<p>Mid-west/Westerners---help us out.</p>

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<p>Re: Georgetown, you might want to PM Clipper, who has a D debating at Georgetown. Also, some other schools worth checking out would be Northwestern, UMich, Emory, Macalester, Pitt, and Catholic. All are well-regarded in forensics with solid poli sci programs, too. Except for UMich, all are located in urban areas, but Ann Arbor is a thriving college town with lots to offer.</p>

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<p>The NDT Top Ten:
1. University of Rochester
2.Northwestern University
3.Michigan State University
4.Emory University
5.Liberty University
6.University of California-Berkeley
7.Whitman College
8. Dartmouth College
9.University of Vermont
10.Mary Washington College
Complete Rankings</p>

<p>The CEDA Top Ten:
1. Michigan State University
2. University of Rochester
3. Northwestern University
4. Emory University
5. Whitman College
6. University of California-Berkeley
7. Liberty University
8. Dartmouth College
9. University of Vermont
10. University of Southern California</p>