"worst" accepted students

<p>An Ivy education is not a right. It’s a resource. These institutions have the difficult job of determining who will have an easy in to the American elite and who will not.</p>

<p>For those of you against AA, how likely do you think a white researcher is to dedicate his life to making a major breakthrough in sickle cell anemia? Do you think an Asian lawyer will make as good of a civil rights attorney for illegal Mexican immigrants as a Mexican one? Are white businessmen as likely to create business consulting firms in black neighborhoods? Can an Asian politician assert the rights of Native American tribes? Whites and Asians can do all of these things, but the minorities are more likely to do them and will probably do them better.</p>

<p>The Ivies are selecting the ruling class of the future, and they are trying to select a ruling class that will push us toward closer racial equality. If they must sacrifice equality in admissions for equality on the streets, they will do so.</p>

<p>This is coming from a half-white, half-Asian conservative.</p>

<p>I hate how everyone just automatically stereotypes kids with 4.0 GPAs and 2400s as robots with no personalities. How would you like it if those kids stereotype you as dumb ass slackers? Such a double standard. Somehow, it’s ok to criticize the smart kids but it’s wrong to point out the dumb kids. It’s kinda like how you can’t mock someone for being fat but you can mock someone for being skinny.</p>

<p>i’m late on this but AA doesn’t slant the playing field because your high school GPA and SAT scores don’t follow you for the rest of your life. No employer thinks
“hmmm this highly qualified minority is a Yale graduate with a great personality but i donno cuz that asian from UMich might have gotten a higher SAT and really shouldve gotten their spot at Yale…”
…doesn’t happen. Anyway since the black candidate probably (statistically) had a more challenging academic path (as far as outside challenges) that needs to be considered like a ‘C’ on an asian’s report card from a teacher that had a mental breakdown…a sick joke but whatever.
However, AA relies on probability based on demographics, so it is not perfect. There should be a way to take into account white people that have lived a black life…I know plenty where I am from.</p>

<p>^ agreed with geedean & christiansoldier.</p>

<p>If I was an employer I wouldn’t be asking HOW or WHY they got into an Ivy. I would want to know what they DID at the Ivy and what they will DO in the future.</p>

<p>How can you view an AA negatively if they had graduated with top honours at university just because they had a sub par SAT score?</p>

<p>Okay, this may be SLIGHTLY (very?) off-topic, but what is AA? I know it stands for Affirmative Action, but what is that? Is it the same as SCEA? Just a synonym or is it something different? Why didn’t I know about this? Do you apply specifically as an AA applicant?</p>

<p>People are talking about the difference being an African American (AA) or otherwise other minority (like Native Indian or Hispanic) has one your application. Affirmative Action are policies that are biased in a positive way to AA.</p>

<p>… I hope that made sense…</p>

<p>Affirmative Action: [Affirmative</a> action - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action]Affirmative”>Affirmative action - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>well, as a freshmen at yale now, let me tell you that acceptance into Yale has nothing to do with ability or qualifications, simply because most of the applicants are well qualified and can do the work. So in the end, GPA, SATS, even what you’ve done EC wise doesnt matter. They just want to accept the students that are best FOR YALE. what does that mean…I have no idea. All I can say is that the school is incredibly diverse in every way. But there is no such thing as “worst” accepted student because im telling you there is no way to classify what Yale is looking for.</p>

<p>I think Affirmative Action is the wrong answer to the right question. Affirmative Action addresses this: how to we help under-served populations receive “fair” treatment from employers and institutions of higher learning? When Affirmative Action was established, under-served populations were those that were systematically racially discriminated against. Affirmative Action, with the rise of the new generation, quickly became obsolete. Today, the problem is that Affirmative Action answers the question based on race, when under-served populations have changed. While racism still blatantly exists in this country (in many ways, as I will probably point out later), it is less of a problem. The under-served populations in our country are now, more than ever before, low-income students. When AA was introduced, a college education could be paid for with work and reasonable debt. This increased mobility for low-income and lower-middle-income students. That is no longer the case. It is now impossible for a low-income student to reasonably consider any four-year education. That includes CC –> public, which can cost up to $80,000 total. For that consideration, see another post.</p>

<p>So, Affirmative Action is definitely the wrong program at the wrong time, although it does address the right problem. However, we’d be having the same conversation if Affirmative Action were socioeconomically based (and, I will insert here that I do advocate active socioeconomic based Affirmative Action and believe that a system without any Affirmative Action whatsoever would decrease social mobility to an unbearable level). Low-income students would get into Harvard or Yale and would be perceived to be unqualified. Middle and upper income students would argue that they were being shunted from their “spots” at these top universities because those universities had or wanted to admit more low-income students. Middle or upper income students would argue that the system is inherently unfair because of this or that. It’s true, Affirmative Action in any form is unfair. That’s fine, though, because the college admissions process is UNFAIR. The college admissions process at top schools has remarkably little to do with academic merit. Almost all students who put in an application to the top schools are said to be, by the top schools themselves, ACADEMICALLY QUALIFIED. Those who aren’t are simply not admitted.</p>

<p>Let me segway into the meat and potatoes of this conversation. We have all pretty much determined that Affirmative Action is not a good policy. However, in its current practice, more wrong is done by its strong opposers than is done by the practice. I say that for these reasons.</p>

<ol>
<li> RACISM - I would argue that Affirmative Action in and of itself is not a racist policy, but it can be implemented in such a fashion. However, Affirmative Action DOES bring out the blatant racism of some of its opposition (and possibly even its supporters, whoever they are). Rtgrove, for example, has proposed that minorities cannot possibly compete at the same academic level of majority or ORM students:</li>
</ol>

<p>

</p>

<p>Such ridiculous statements are certainly racist, or “the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races.” Now, it IS true that a smaller percentage of African Americans score highly on the SAT than white or Asian students. Absolutely true. However, there are also significantly fewer African American students in the United States. Regardless of AA, if colleges wanted to maintain a black population on campus, it comes to a point where the numbers simply don’t match up. There are simply more white students in the United States. Period. How do Asians factor into the numbers? They have a culture that promotes high academic achievement - as an African American, I’d say our “culture” (which is ridiculous, but alas another argument) has the opposite atmosphere, thus explaining our low percentage of high-achieving students.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>DISCRIMINATION. Affirmative Action or not, it doesn’t matter whether an African American student on campus at a 4.0 and a 2400. Some students, especially some of the posters on this board, will still assume that student is academically statistically inferior because that person is African American, and is therefore, in their eyes, an Affirmative Action admit. That sounds like “the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races” to me (aka, racism). It doesn’t matter whether a Hispanic has a 2400 on the SAT - perhaps even coming from a non-English speaking home - because some students will always look at that student and see Affirmative Action, not academic talent. And a white student on campus is going to thought to have had a 2350 and a 4.0, when the fact may remain that he or she is a 2000-scoring crew recruit. Or, an Asian student on campus may be thought to have had a 2400 and a 4.0 when in reality had a 2100 and a legacy, or even a 2100 but a knack for winning competitions, or a 2000 and a truly outstanding track record of community service. Affirmative Action is a problem. Discrimination by some Affirmative Action opponents is a bigger problem.</p></li>
<li><p>FAIRNESS. Some opponents of Affirmative Action seem to think that the college admissions process is a meritocracy. Score well and do well in school, and somehow you deserve to be admitted to a top school. This is B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T. Even if AA didn’t exist, the college application process wouldn’t be any more academically-centered. Harvard could easily fill its class, even under the current AA system, with 2300+s and 4.0s. Heck, even if it did it would still have to reject students. It doesn’t. Why? It’s NOT A STATISTICS GAME. The process is not only holistic, its subjective. The college admissions process have very little to do with academic merit as long as the student has a 2000+ and a decent GPA or rank. And it would be extremely difficult to find a student at one of those institutions who doesn’t have a 2000+ and/or a decent GPA or rank. They exist, but it’s rare. And even if they do exist, it’s not a problem. College admissions is NOT based on academic merit - purely or no. Yale, Harvard, Stanford - you name the top school - sits down to create a dynamic class. If they have a star oboist who is only a sophomore, they need not admit three more star oboists. So like it or not, a 2400, 4.0 star oboist music major is not going to get admitted. Two may, but definitely not half a dozen of them. The same goes for athletic recruits or legacies. Why are athletic recruits and legacies fair game but not minority students? Legacy students are certainly born that way, as is an African American student. Athletic students are more often than not the result of opportunity and talent, which come with birth. But why? Because some students can see the intrinsic value of athletes and legacies to colleges, whereas they can’t see the intrinsic value of minority students (and, for the record, neither can I with the exception of reservation Native Americans and potentially some other small groups, but similar groups exist within majority and ORM populations). Even without AA, a 2400 and a 4.0 who is POed to have been rejected from Harvard would have still been rejected from Harvard. And the 2150, 3.9 African American student with a low-income, single parent, first generation upbringing would have still been admitted. Colleges choose who they admit, not numbers.</p></li>
<li><p>UNHOOKED APPLICANTS. There is the argument that unhooked applications are competing for admissions based on academic merit and strength of application alone. This is simply untrue. If it were true, only 2400s and 4.0 white and ORM students would be admitted. But since some of them are rejected every year - in place of white or ORM students who have less “academic merit” - that is clearly not the case. Unhooked applicants tend to have very high statistics because high statistics correlate well with interesting facets, such as competition winning, strong ECs, and so on and so forth. But it is not a numbers game. Unhooked applicants are experiencing the same holistic, subjective, and often arbitrary admissions process of hooked applications. Case and point, a student getting into Harvard and Stanford but not Yale. That proves that the admissions process, even for unhooked students, is not based solely or even highly on academic merit. So even without AA, there would still be “lower scoring” students of every color and creed at top universities, and not because 2400s and 4.0s are uninteresting. It would be because the process is not so easily defined.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>In summary, the damage done by AA is more profound in threads like these than it is in the actual admissions process. The racism and skewed viewpoint of some of the people who oppose Affirmative Action the most harshly is more damaging to the college-age - and beyond - population. There is no such thing as an admitted student at top schools who didn’t have something the admissions team wanted besides race - or else the acceptance rate for African American or Hispanic or American Indian students would be 100%, or only the highest scoring minority students would be accepted. Neither is true at any of the top schools, and you can find plenty of evidence right here on CC. There is no such thing as “deserving” a spot at a top school or having a spot “taken.” There’s no such thing as a white student who got rejected “because” of a black student, even if he or she thinks he or she was more “deserving” or “qualified” of that “spot” at a top school.</p>

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</p>

<p>I am a urm with 2300 superscored 3.9 and good E.C’s and I’m still worried about my chances…</p>

<p>How much will my being born in the Ukraine will help me with my chances?
I read, write, and speak both fluent Russian (go figure) and English, and I can pass by in Ukrainian.
I came to the U.S. as a refugee, with circumstances under which my family wasn’t allowed government aid. I don’t have citizenship or a greencard in the U.S. But We have what is known as a whitecard (a couple steps lower than a greencard). Meaning I still have citizenship in the Ukraine.</p>

<p>As a reference, my mom has a law degree from the University of Donetsk (she was accepted into the University of Moscow but couldn’t go), my grandfather was a very famous lawyer there. My dad had a Masters in Engineering. My parents are both in their sixties and I’m not even twenty, so they achieved their degree’s in the 1960’s, and haven’t bothered to defend their degrees in the states.</p>

<p>Will these stats help?</p>

<p>Applcannot, </p>

<p>I will briefly address the two points you made with which I have most contention, as time is short today:</p>

<ol>
<li>Discrimination: </li>
</ol>

<p>It is absurd to fault students for being aware of Affirmative Action. While one should have the mental discipline not to immediately jump to conclusions when meeting a URM at their university, it is ridiculous not to expect that student to know that it is likely, or at least possible, that the URM was less academically qualified than their white and asian counterpart. Does it make the student racist because they are capable of telling an asian from a hispanic, and that they are aware of the fact that the academic bar is set lower? The admissions paradigm that exists is racist, and forces people to consider race when judging their academic peers. The only people responsible for that are those who support and/or implement Affirmative Action. Note that because university admission standards are striated (i.e. Schools have a generally linear relationship in terms of the academic qualifications of he student body and ranking/prestige/opportunity etc.) Thus, each tier of URM gets bumped up into the next one. What’s most definitely undeniable is that URM’s will get racially selective scholarships, established by the university, that may be off limits to whites/asians. If ever there was something that should be based on merit/need, it’s scholarships. Again, if more URM’s are in need, then they should receive more need based funds simply by virtue of their need rather than their race. I continue to maintain that skin color adds nothing to perspective or experience. Personal experience and culture does, and that certainly correlates to race, but an asian doesn’t see the world differently from a hispanic just because of the shape of the difference in their complexion. </p>

<ol>
<li>A URM is not taking away the spot of a white/asian: </li>
</ol>

<p>Again, this is ridiculous. Class sizes are not unlimited and there are plenty of white’s and asians who come from disadvantaged backgrounds who do plenty of interesting things. Being “academically qualified” and being “AS academically qualified” are two entirely different things. Yes, universities do select for attributes other than academic achievement. I, and others, are simply arguing that one of those attributes shouldn’t be hair type and melanin level.</p>

<p>Shn - you’re the wrong color and socioeconomic class to really benefit from AA in this country. Now, if your parents were poor and you had escaped poverty, that might do it. But, despite all of the arguments that people make in support of affirmative action, the truth is that it’s about getting the right skin colors into the college so everyone can pat themselves on the back and talk about how they aren’t racist, even as they continue to systematically classify people by race. </p>

<p>Welcome to (liberal) America, where people aren’t going to let little things like facts and reason mess up their argument (i.e. AA is supposed to fight racism, which is wrong, but is itself a racially discriminative policy).</p>

<p>A guy at my school got in two years with a 2.6 GPA (very competitive private school) and a 1210/1600 SAT.</p>

<p>He was African-American and a recruited athlete (baseball pitcher) and maybe had some other hook. </p>

<p>I am making no comment on whether this is ethical or not, but it is a school hobby to go on naviance.com and find his little green X in a huge HUGE sea of reds lol.</p>

<p>Phear_me,</p>

<p>The fact that I am a refugee gains the fact that I escaped from my country for a reason. Not an immigrant, refugee. Immigration means I just moved, being a refugee shows that I was FLEEING my country for some reason or another. And I am very poor, my parents only make $15K PER YEAR.</p>

<p>Plus, I am trying to get into the International category of what colleges have look for.
i.e.
White: 43%
Black: 27%
Asian: 26%
Indian: 1%
Internattional: 3% <— Me</p>

<p>Shnead, </p>

<p>But the question is, will that come across in your application? Your parents have graduate degrees. Definitely tell your story in the essay, if it is a matter of being a refugee, and they actually read it, it should play well (and deservedly so). </p>

<p>I’d be happy to look over your essays if you’d like some objective feedback.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Did you even read the rest of my post? The point is that that student is extremely unlikely to be less academically qualified. By your apparent definition, there are hundreds of white and Asian students every year who get rejected but at “more qualified” than the very white or Asian student you use hypothetically. There are more qualified students, but statistics aren’t the key factor. A 4.0 at a Baltimore city high school is no 4.0 at Exeter - but clearly a kid with a 3.8 from Exeter, by your apparent definition, is “less academically qualified.”</p>

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</p>

<p>There is no fact, there is only perception. Awareness isn’t the key here. Assuming that that student is somehow less statistically “qualified,” or as in the post I quoted, assuming there is almost no such thing as a “statistically qualified” minority, is racism.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I agree with you, although you should be clear that Affirmative Action is racially discriminatory but not racist. It’s certainly not as though one is better than the other, though.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Yes, but this would happen with or without Affirmative Action because there are simply significantly fewer minority students than white students. It’s the same decline as there is for tiers of white students, but it happens faster because of a lack of supply. Even if white and African American groups had the same percentage of students in the 700+ range, the African American tier would empty our more quickly because of size of the population versus the size of the school.</p>

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</p>

<p>I agree with you there, most definitely. We certainly wouldn’t have a Caucasian-only scholarship.</p>

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</p>

<p>Well, this is where we partially disagree. I’m not sure if by merit you mean academic merit alone. In that case, we’d have to disagree entirely. There are many types of scholarships, including academic scholarships but also community service scholarships, niche scholarships (greek/latin, Spanish-speaking, etc.). I certainly believe that there should be niche scholarships, even if that means race-based scholarships. But I would prefer that institutions themselves not offer race-based scholarships. However, some of those scholarships are set up by alumni (as opposed to for alumni, in which case the scholarships should not be race-based) - in which case the water becomes murkier.</p>

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</p>

<p>I agree, however, on a different note I’d like to add that all but a few colleges offer at least adequate need-based aid.</p>

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</p>

<p>I completely agree with you here and am 85% positive I stated that, but if not that I’m putting that here.</p>

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</p>

<p>I agree. However, this is not a statistics game. Saying that someone is less academically qualified is saying that they did not score as well or take as many high level classes, or even go to as rigorous a high school. In that case, plenty of whites and Asians are rejected despite being more “statistically qualified” (and therefore “academically qualified”) than other white/Asian counterparts. If it’s about being “as academically qualified,” then only the highest scoring, most academically rigorous students would be accepted from ANY race, PERIOD. That is simply not the case, Affirmative Action or not.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I agree, but that certainly wouldn’t remove students from the accepted list who are not “as academically qualified.”</p>

<p>Someone said that future employers will look at URMs from Harvard or Yale, etc., and think, “Did they really deserve it?” I simply don’t believe this to be true, but I can’t say for certain because I haven’t yet made it far into the job market lol. But I highly doubt MOST employers simply look at URMs from top schools and question their merit.</p>

<p>As to all this controversy about AA, I generally agree that AA has faults and can seem racist at times, but AA honestly has good intentions. As for the white and Asian students, excuse me but suck it up. I’m Asian. Full Asian. Yeah, we have to work harder than some to get into good schools. But seriously, people should spend less time whining about how unfair AA is and more time doing productive things. It’ll help you in the end. Stop complaining, life is NEVER fair. The best you can do is to work harder, be stronger, build better ECs, spend some more time on your essays…</p>

<p>Hey guys, I guess I’m late into the debate, but I thought you might be interested to see what I have to say as a well-to-do hispanic. This an excerpt from an essay I wrote for an English class last year. Enjoy!</p>

<p>Many seem to believe that there is some form of conspiracy among people of Latin descent who want to gain an unfair advantage in the college admissions process. I have heard countless times how unfair it is that a well-off Hispanic such as myself should be considered a minority by colleges and universities. However, I don’t understand how my father’s and grandparents’ successful efforts to better their economic situation makes me any less Hispanic. Similarly, I simply cannot understand how the inheritance of my mother’s Norwegian features detracts from the legitimacy of the culture I have inherited from my father’s side of the family. Clearly, however, some do think that my appearance and economic standing mean that I should not be considered a minority by admissions officers and that I serve no role in diversifying a college campus.</p>

<p>These critics, and even many admissions officers, have lost sight of the purpose of providing an admissions preference to certain minority groups. The preference afforded certain minority groups was initiated to increase the number of students from identified underrepresented minority groups in the general college population. The goal was to obtain a greater degree of both racial and cultural diversity. The aim was not to encourage economic diversity, which is the domain of need blind admission policies and financial aid. The preference afforded underrepresented minority groups is intended to provide a community of students that more accurately reflects the cultural and racial makeup of American society. Those who equate cultural and racial diversity with economic diversity operate under the erroneous assumption that all members of underrepresented minority groups are by definition poor. </p>

<p>Further, critics of the current minority admissions policy operate under an outmoded definition of diversity. When they complain that the preference benefits not only “truly” diverse first generation immigrants or people of color they overlook the evolving multicultural nature of American society. My background as the child of parents of mixed cultural backgrounds provides me with a unique bicultural perspective. My knowledge of both my father’s Cuban culture and my mother’s European culture could, in a collegiate setting, serve to expand the horizons and challenge the belief systems of my classmates, a kind of tension that colleges seek. The preference I am given in college admission furthers the goal of reflecting the evolving multicultural nature of our society. College students will need to face the multifaceted cultural setting of the “real world”, and diversity in their college life can serve to further prepare them for this task.</p>

<p>Finally, many adversaries of racial preference in college admissions simply declare that it is unfair. However, if critics wish to question the fairness of ethnic preference they must question the fairness of the college admissions system as a whole. For example, most colleges wish to create a fifty-fifty male to female ratio. Given the fact that selective colleges now receive more applications from qualified females than from qualified males, many such colleges have begun to lower their standards for male applicants. The preference for male applicants is intended to create a desirable gender balance in the student body. Is this any more “fair” than selection based on ethnicity? Colleges also give a selection preference to students with unique abilities such as varsity lacrosse players or members of string quartets. Although it may be argued that these are acquired talents rather than accidents of birth, I would argue that these are talents nurtured by privilege. In order for the admissions process to be truly “fair,” all preferences would need to be removed, leaving college admissions decisions to be based only on test scores and transcripts. Many view even these arguably objective standards as inherently unfair. Abandoning all forms of preference in the admissions process would deprive colleges of their ability to build a productive and diverse community of students.</p>

<p>sorry that was really long lol</p>