<p>Would someone please explain grade deflation to me? I thought if you made an A on a test you made an A and that a B was a B etc. </p>
<p>DS is looking at Boston Univ as a possible choice but I read several things about Boston Univ that said some students were unhappy and could not transfer out when they wanted to because of grade deflation.</p>
<p>"Grade deflation" is how you explain to your parents why your college transcript is less impressive than they imagined it would be.</p>
<p>Grade deflation exists only at your college, and maybe one or two others that no one you know goes to. Every other college has grade inflation. At those colleges everyone gets As just for showing up, or maybe writing a one-paragraph paper. That's why some of your high school friends are getting better grades than you are. The ones who aren't -- it's because they are partying much, much more than you do.</p>
<p>Grade deflation proves that your college cares about Standards and Western Civilization, that it is Old School / OG. That C+ in calculus? It is a badge of honor!</p>
<p>Princeton and Swarthmore are reputed to have grade deflation. No one from those colleges has gotten into law school or medical school in a decade. Really! It's tragic!</p>
<p>JHS, grading policy changed at Princeton beginning in the academic year 2005-6. It has consisted of actual quotas (ceilings) for specific grades, regardless of the strength of the class. Many conscientious, capable, non-slacker students have been and are concerned about it. Some parents of Princetonians who have seen the before and after have not liked the change. Personally, I do not like an artificial appointment of marks in subjectively-graded classes such as those demanding essays, classroom contribution, etc. First of all, it is not realistic. There will be classes where virtually no one has earned an A; while other classes 75% have met the standard of "excellence" designated by that letter. Beyond that, as an educator I have seen what arbitrary cut-offs produce: they discourage collegiality & generosity; they also tend to encourage anxious attempts at visibility.</p>
<p>There were many other ways to monitor & evaluate the practice of grading. The policy change was ill-conceived, i.m.o.</p>
<p>I think grad schools are aware of schools with inflation.
Deflation doesn't hurt, unless you want automatic acceptances
GRADE</a> DEFLATION | Newsweek Education | Newsweek.com</p>
<p>EK, both you and JHS assume that the only or even primary reason for objections is related to grad school acceptance. Neither one of you apparently feels that there are undergrad-related reasons to oppose quotas. I just named some of them. In addition, it's demoralizing. College isn't the army: it's not as if you need to 'teach 'em a lesson." Rigor, not rigidity: big difference.</p>
<p>I like JHS' (friendly) rant. But I have to agree with epiphany.</p>
<p>I think there are two "types" of grade deflation/inflation. One where schools get a reputation for being "easy" or "tough." These reputations may or may not be accurate portrayals. EG, if 90% of Harvard students have A averages (I made this stat up, no flames please), some might use this as proof it is a "grade-inflated" school. OTOH, they might all work hard and be smart and all have earned A's.</p>
<p>The other type is more what epiphany refers to and what I have seen. In some schools and/or some fields, the curve enforces a type of grade deflation. If everyone in Engineering 101 (another fictional course) had grades on a test of 89 or better (normally high B+ or better), some curves require that the lowest grade be calibrated to be the D or C-. Ergo, 89 is now a very sad grade. Grade deflation.</p>
<p>In my high school days, "grading on the curve" was a helpful thing, trotted out when the whole class performed poorly on a test. If, say, the highest grade was a 74.... that 74 suddenly became the A and those 65's moved up to B, based on the curve.</p>
<p>Not how it is used at some college programs today.</p>
<p>The other tough thing about the curve as used in some programs. Often the students see only their raw grades all term. From chatting with others or some prof-provided information, they may have a vague idea of whether they scored at, above or below the class average. However, the actual course grading curve is not calculated by the professor until final grade time... so students in these fields learn what they earned after the fat lady has sung.</p>
<p>Not fun, but it is what it is.</p>
<p>What jmmom described might not be fun in college, but it should ESSENTIAL in all high schools in the country ... in each and every one of them. </p>
<p>The biggest shock of "grade inflation" comes from the rude awakening that follows years of grade coccooming in our public high schools. Bad grades in high schools can --and are-- quickly erased by generous curves, asinine weighing policies, a trip by mommy and daddy to the teacher of principal, not to mention silly methods such a having perfect attendance replacing finals. </p>
<p>This is why the College Board can report that most silly statistic of more than 40% of high school students earning a MINIMUM of an A average. </p>
<p>Time has come to curb this Lake Wobegon idiocy and implement a system where an A is truly remarkable, a B does mean something, and a C represents the average of the class. With this, we should not rely on a moronic system where students can earn a 4.5/5, a 5.0/4.0, or ... even much higher. </p>
<p>While it is wonderful feeling for a parent to cling to a MS report card of little Susan (the genius in the making) that shows a 99 or 100 average, there is little reality in such grades. Schools should not be like the YMCA where everyone who participates gets a big **MVP **trophy. </p>
<p>The current system of education in the US is in crisis. On the one hand, it lulls many parents in believing their kids are truly special and could be on their way to the Ivy League. On the other hand, the system underreports (with the help of pseudo-scientists "bribed" by the unions or liberal minded organizations) the abysmal graduation records of our schools. The system fails ... everyone! </p>
<p>At the end, as a country, we should be extremely happy with a C grade, mostly because that is well above how we score in international comparisons, and well above what our schools deserve as grades. </p>
<p>Time has come to accept that the idiots that appear on Jay Leno's jaywalking might have graduated as Honor students somewhere in America and might have been A or B students. :(</p>
<p>
[quote]
Grade deflation proves that your college cares about Standards and Western Civilization, that it is Old School / OG. That C+ in calculus? It is a badge of honor!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Coming from Colgate with some grade deflation, I can agree on this! I felt like I really busted my butt off in those three years I was there. I almost wanted to wheeze over that finish line at graduation. :) But I couldn't get my diploma fast enough!</p>
<p>
[quote]
At the end, as a country, we should be extremely happy with a C grade, mostly because that is well above how we score in international comparisons, and well above what our schools deserve as grades.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You suggesting that we look up to W as our role model given that he made Cs at Yale? :) No flames- couldn't resist the joke!</p>
<p>Grade deflation does seem to come from schools that pride on high standards that demand the best from their students. I really saw that in some of my courses where my professors weren't so easy on giving out As. Even though your "B" work might seem better than someone else's "B" work, the professor's saying that you're performing below your potential. At least that's what one of my prof suggested on my research paper- that the grade doesn't make me stupid or smart as the next person with the same grade. That and her extensive comments were her ways of showing me how highly she thought of my ability. So basically, yup, grade deflation is good for grad school.</p>
<p>EK, both you and JHS assume that the only or even primary reason for objections is related to grad school acceptance. Neither one of you apparently feels that there are undergrad-related reasons to oppose quotas.</p>
<p>I didn't actually state my preference for or against grading on a curve.
However, I will admit, that when your overall achievement( of the student body) is fairly high & you grade on a curve, your GPA is going to be quite a bit lower- as was my daughters when she attended a pretty strenous private high school, than it would have been had she attended a school where she would have been more in the top 10% rather than the top 40%.</p>
<p>Not to mention when she was accepted to Reed, her GPA but also her test scores were lower ( a tad) than the median student. Since they don't routinely show you your grades, she was riding closer to the * danger* point than she realized,( in organic chem) even though she was working her a$$ off ( & IMO doing good work- she also received good evals on her labs- it was the final that hurt)</p>
<p>Ive never taught an actual class or heaven forbid had to grade students- I would agree that if 20 are doing work that is well above and beyond what was needed for the class & 10 are barely showing up, then 20 should get an A, and 10 should get a C- ( if doing passing work).</p>
<p>Grading can be so subjective.
For instance, I am currently in school.
Hort program at a community college.
Oh. My. God.
2007 Fall qtr I registered for 18 credits.
:eek:
Why I didn't just volunteer to be in hard labor again for three days I don't know, at least then I would have got a baby out of it. :D</p>
<p>I've had an instructor who gave long essay tests, weekly oral quizes & even though I was working very hard & although I was having difficulty with memorizing the material, despite meeting with instructor ( and I felt I should have gotten a testing accomodation for my learning disability), I earned a D, which I do not think is passing in some schools, at least it wasn't in either of my daughters high schools. ( the class was ID & since I have extensive short term memory issues, being able to retrieve the taxonomic rank out of my head for one of about 700 plants, spell all that correctly and do it quickly for 3-4 hours was as my auntie would say * beyond my ken* & it didn't help that the instructor picked the most * dessicated, pathetic, stunted * plants for us to view-) :(</p>
<p>However, other instructors, even for the above class, had different testing methods for everyone ( allowed you to have your notes), & most classes I receive an A or so. ( note to others- find out what you can about instructors for fall term, especially in classes that you suspect might be an issue- the prof rating site for Reed, seems to be right on from what I have heard about the instructors reviewed for example)</p>
<p>I doubt that the first instructor graded on a curve, at least then some of the students would have gotten an A. I don't think anyone got an A, although I do know some who had a Bminus.( In retrospect, I think some of his nice guy act, is an act)</p>
<p>When you are at a school where some instructors, seperate from the level of the course material, use a curve & some don't, it can be confusing to figure out how you are doing in the class.</p>
<p>It certainly has given me empathy though for my D, it isn't the subject- it is the instructor, that makes the difference in grasping the material, and I think that at least the same course should have similar evaluation methods, isn't that what they were trying to get at with NCLB?</p>
<p>
[quote]
The biggest shock of "grade inflation" comes from the rude awakening that follows years of grade coccooming in our public high schools. Bad grades in high schools can --and are-- quickly erased by generous curves, asinine weighing policies, a trip by mommy and daddy to the teacher of principal, not to mention silly methods such a having perfect attendance replacing finals.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Xiggi - surely you are generalizing. This does not even remotely resemble my kids' public high school. Another reason why GPA is meaningless since there is no reference point.</p>
<p>One reason why there is a disconnect between high school and college is the mysterious concept of weighting. When some high school allow GPA's to weight to 5 or 6.0 on a 4.0=A scale - the little darlings are devastated when they get to college.
Of course every college has their "easy" majors and "gut" courses as well.</p>
<p>I think JHS was right on.....</p>
<p>Neither of my D's high schools weighted grades
While my younger daughters school had 26 valedictorians this year, they included students who took many APs and those that took one or two. ( or maybe none)
She has taken 4 APs( over 4 years) and most of the rest were honors. But the difficulty depends on the subject. Her regular level senior physics class was much more time consuming and draining, than her AP American government class.</p>
<p>Her hard work doesn't show in her GPA, but it does on her transcript, and she is better prepared for future study than someone who took the easy A course.</p>
<p>I buy absolutely none of the generalizations, misconceptions, biases, and flat-out misinformation on this thread. Going to a rigorous school does NOT mean that you have not earned your own stand-alone A if indeed your own work is excellent on its own merits -- BOTH compared with peers AND measured against expected grade-level rubrics. Has nothing to do either with parental assumptions ("Lake Wobegon") or with the makeup of the class. I have seen it all in my long career as educator and parent. I have seen teachers justifiably issuing a single B, with a majority of C's---> F's in a particular class: nobody met THE TEACHER's standard. Period. Over. Out. (And if the teacher doesn't have clearly conceived & communicated standards, that's no one's fault but the teacher's.) I have seen teachers justifiably issue 60% A's, 35% B's, and a couple of C's: two slackers who just didn't perform to ability (or shouldn't have been in a demanding class) + an exceptionally high level of ability & performance in the rest of the class. Most often, neither "extreme" is produced, but rather a range from A-->F with most falling in the B/C category -- since "good" to "average" is where the majority of students will tend to line up. The only time I have ever been bothered by grading is one instance in which a less experienced teacher inappropriately gave almost every 6th grader an A, but clearly in my observation of that class about 3 people deserved an A, the majority B's, and at least 5 deserved a C.</p>
<p>I've seen curved subjective grading, and it is not pretty. What happens is, there is no ceiling, because the grade is strictly dependent on who can outmaneuver whom. It's academic dog-eat-dog. You may be taking 6 or 7 courses in high school, all demanding. You are performing to the maximum standard, and then some, for class expectations. The catch is: there is no upper limit on expectation. Your own papers are beautifully written, researched, and polished. However, some insanely competitive student next to you has a Take No Prisoners approach, and decides to become obsessive about his grade, foregoing sleep, health, e.c.'s, & normalcy. He writes a graduate-level paper in length (not necessarily in quality -- yours may be a better quality paper, but hey, he did "more" than you). He suddenly is "setting the standard" for the class -- not the teacher, not the school. (It might even be that student's parents, actually, setting the standard.) It is not even a rigorous-high-school standard, nor an AP-standard. In fact it does invite parental involvement & intervention when one does this, because of the infinite limits of possibility.</p>
<p>On the college level, I have already stated my reasons for opposing a formula-based system of grading. </p>
<p>The existence of grade <em>in</em>flation is due to a failure to supervise & failure to train in the practice of grading, as well as a failure in consistency of standards & the communication of those. The cure is not artificial <em>de</em>flation which is as flawed as <em>in</em>flation. Neither one is an accurate measure of performance. The cure is accurate & realistic judgment, reflecting quantifiable standards, even in subjective performance.</p>