<p>I think I pressed the wrong button, and may have lost the thread I posted. Yikes. I'll start over, I guess. I'm new to this board, and I have a concern I hope some of you can help me with. The concern is regarding whether the course schedule my daughter is considering for next year will hurt her in college admissions. The specifics: My daughter is a high school junior in an IB program in California. Her academic interests are in English, Writing, and Humanities. She has worked hard for her B's in science and Math. As a freshman, she took Geometry, Alg 2 Soph year, and IB Math 1 (an integrated course that includes logic, probability, statistics, a bit of trig, pre-calc, and differential calc) this year as a junior. She took a PreCalc correspondence course from a local university last summer. She qualifies for AP Calc (her h.s. offers AP Calc in addition to IB Math), but she doesn't want to suffer through the course, and I agreed that she can stop math after 3 years. Now the dilemma has to do with science. Science is tracked in an odd way with math at her school. If you start in Geo as a freshmen, you must take this course called "Prep Sci" - the name (as it appears on the transcript) is meaningless, and the course is a Conceptual Physics class. The course name was changed this year, but it will not be retroactive, so her transcript will continue to have the "prep sci" on it. She took Honors Chem as a soph, and opted for the 2 year sequence in Environmental Systems for junior and senior years because the alternative IB Bio 2 year sequence is notoriously difficult, and she struggled a bit in Honors Chem (for those from California, the IB Environmental class counts as a "d" lab science Honors course for the UC's) OK, here's the concern: does the science seem kind of "lightweight" given that there is no Bio or physics on the record? It is 4 years of science, but it seems like only one year of core science. I wouldn't be as concerned about this if her math wasn't also kind of "light." The option she is facing for next year is to take a biology course at the local community college, and not take the IB Anthro elective course she had her heart set on. She can not take IB bio at the high school because it is also a 2 year sequence, and she can't take the junior year course in her senior year, and can't take the senior year course without the prereq of the junior year. So her option is to take a community college course or the "regular" freshman bio class. I feel bad pushing the science when I know it is primarily to strengthen her academic record for college admissions, especially when she would have to sacrifice the course in IB Anthro that she has been really wanting to take. So, for those of you who seem to know this sort of thing, is it, in your opinion, worth it to take the extra bio class to strengthen her academic record? I'll supply more details if needed, but I guess I should add that she is not considering the ultra-selective colleges, but is looking at schools along the lines of Wash U, Emory, Brandeis, UC Davis, maybe Pomona. Thanks so much for your thoughts!</p>
<p>Is she taking the SAT II in a science? That could boslter her science part of her stats. Why wont they change the name of the class retro actively? Can the counselor note that in the transcript? WHat do each of the colleges you are looking at want? I would like to think the summer course would help....</p>
<p>Don't all H.S students have to do a sequence of Physics, Chemistry and Biology? Are the Env. Science or Anthro. classified as Bio.?
Btw Emory, Pomona, WashU and Brandeis are all ultra selective. I'm not sure which of them require SAT ll's, and if your D will be taking at least 2 of these SAT ll's</p>
<p>shojomo, </p>
<p>My D is like yours in her academic strong/weaker areas. I can really relate to your situation. I agree with you that lightness in math & sci will probably be a negative for your D. But there may be a few ways to attack this.</p>
<p>First, I suggest that you not give up on the transcript issue. Make an appeal to the school board to have the name of the "Prep Sci" class retroactively changed to "Conceptual Physics" on the transcripts, to better reflect reality. Argue that it is a matter of consistency. Two applicants to the same college from your HS could have different courses listed in transcript yet they might have the same content. It could potentially (and unfairly) favor applicant A over applicant B and be confusing. Get a few other parents whose kids were in the "Prep Sci" class to support you. Maybe the Sch Board will listen! </p>
<p>If you are not successful, the GC should write an explanation of the meaning of "Prep Sci" in his part of the college app-- indicating that it <em>was</em> a physics class and the class is now named "Conceptual Physics." This will help convey the reality of the class to the adcom.</p>
<p>Re next year & strengthening schedule: is there a possibility your D can add a community college science class this summer? My D took Bio and Astronomy at CC pre-junior & pre-senior years, to give herself room in her school-year schedule for the electives she wanted. She actually found that the science classes were easier for her when they were her only focus-- got a B & an A in them.</p>
<p>The rigor of the courses <em>is</em> a big part of admission. My D did not have a perfect transcript (3.87 W); she did however have 4 math & 5 science. (Math for Jr & Sr was Statistics & Pre Calc. Sci sequence was F--Conceptual Phys, S-- H Chem, J-- Bio (summer), AP Bio & S-- Astronomy (summer). She took "zero" period classes, which meet at 7am, in soph & junior years in order to have two electives each year without lightening the expected academic load. I think that this curricular strength does offset imperfect grades.</p>
<p>Finally I would say the colleges your D likes ARE very selective and would have very similar curricular expectations to an Ivy. </p>
<p>Hope this advice is helpful.</p>
<p>My daughter is also like you in that math is not her strong suit and she is not particularly interested in science. She attends a private school in California that sends 98% of students on to 4 year colleges, including the UC's and top privates. </p>
<p>She wanted to drop math senior year next year but her guidance counselor strongly recommended against it. She said that the most selective schools and even less selective schools want to see 4 years of math and will give preference to someone who takes a 4th year even if it is obviously not their strong suit. Apparently, it sends a message that you are willing to take a subject you don't like. The guidance counselor said the most competitive UC's (Berkeley, LA) in particular like to see that 4th year of math on the transcript.</p>
<p>The guidance counselor also advised us to look at the colleges my D. is interested in and see how many require math as a general requirement - she said that if many of them did, not having math for a year might make math in college even harder for my daughter. Most of the colleges my daughter is interested in do have a math requirement of some sort. </p>
<p>Her guidance counselor also said three years of lab science is a minimum for most colleges. We have a freshman year class called "lab science" that sounds similiar to your daughter's freshman year class and my daughter has taken bio and chem. Unfortunately, the UC's do not count the school's freshman year lab science class as a "lab science" class so she will not get credit from them for that course to fulfill or exceed the UC requirements. If your daughter is at all interested in the UC's, I'd suggest checking out if that class at your daughter's school fulfills the UC a-g requirements (you can look up your school's classes at <a href="http://www.ucop.edu/pathways%5B/url%5D">www.ucop.edu/pathways</a>. If it isn't, the UC's will only give her credit for two science classes, not three (2 are required but 3 are strongly recommended by the UC's).</p>
<p>In any case, this is the advice my daughter was given and she will be taking math next year, even though she is not happy about it. She is not applying to the UC's so she will not be taking that extra year of science but she understands that it will be viewed as a weakness on her transcript.</p>
<p>Thanks so much for all your prompt and thoughtful replies! The guidance counselor will notate on the transcript that the freshman course was "conceptual physics", but the school district will not change the course name retroactively. We've fought this issue for 3 years and with 2 principals, but no luck. The best they will do is notate the course name has changed, and that the "prep sci" class she took is "equivalent to conceptual physics." The IB sequence in science is sort of unusual, but for the students who start off in Geometry as a freshman, they have few choices if they want to go for the full IB diploma. The sequence is Prep Sci, Chem, and either Environmental systems or Bio sequence. I thought about a summer course in Bio, but that would eliminate her attending the University of Iowa Young Writer's Workshop that she loves, and which is really the only chance she gets to have creative writing evaluated. I'd hate to see her give up that summer program for a cc Bio course. She could take the bio course at the community college over the school year, but like I said, it would mean giving up the Anthro. Anthro does not count as Bio, by the way, it's only an elective. So, the question is whether it is "worth it" (for the type of schools she's looking at...and the ones I listed are likely her "reach"- type schools) to bolster her science record with that bio course at the expense of the IB Anthro. Ugh. I'm worn out from thinking about this, and my daughter is kind of stressed (and upset) about losing her elective. :( By the way, the PreCalc summer course will also be notated on her transcript (and she gets a Berkeley extension transcript with the course on it) but the course doesn't get figured into her GPA. Any additional thoughts or comments are most appreciated! Thank you all.</p>
<p>Again, if she is interested in the UC's, even as safety school backups, I'd check whether that freshman class would be counted towards the UC a-g requirements. Again, the UC's REQUIRE two years of an approved lab science course. Make sure the freshman course will count.</p>
<p>Just wanted to give you the direct link to the UC course lookup site - you need to put in your daughter's school to find out what is approved. Then, make sure to double check those A-G requirements to see how she compares. Again, the UC's want to see more than the minimum requirements if possible. <a href="https://pathways.ucop.edu/doorways/list/%5B/url%5D">https://pathways.ucop.edu/doorways/list/</a></p>
<p>P.S. She's not taking an SAT 2 in science. She took History and will take Spanish this spring, and English Lit in the fall, if necessary. Carolyn, I looked up the UC website you recommended, and the freshman "prep sci" class doesn't meet the lab science requirement, but her honors chem and both years of environmental systems does, so she has 3 years of lab science- it just doesn't look like much "core" science because of Environmental systems. I get what you're saying about the math, but the thought of it brings daughter to tears.</p>
<p>Welcome Shojomo! I have a question that is probably not very constructive, but more along the lines of 20-20 hindsight. Since it seems that colleges prefer to see four years of math (but maybe not necessarily calculus specifically), if your daughter had NOT taken the PreCalc correspondence course last summer, could she have taken PreCalc as a junior and IB Math 1 as a senior, and that would have given her the four years of math? Or doesn't the scheduling in the IB program that she is in work that way?</p>
<p>Then you're set.
Believe me, I understand the tears about another year of math. My daughter reacted the same way but since her science is going to be weak, she knew she has to do that 4th year of math. :(</p>
<p>And another thought along the same lines as my earlier post. Why wouldnt colleges consider the correspondence course that shojomo's daughter took last summer as a fourth year of math? Apparently, it was equivalent to a full year of high school math. Couldn't she submit the transcript or record from this class in addition to her high school transcript to show she has four years of math?</p>
<p>MOT,</p>
<p>This is a logical idea and will probably help at a school that is doing a comprehensive review of the app. UC's do a numbers-based review where it is all plugged in to a formula so it is hard to get extenuating circumstances considered.</p>
<p>Just thought I would add a note. My daughter is also in the IB program and is strong in math. Our school offered the IB math (1 year, SL) only, the same one you describe. It does not provide sufficient preparation for AP Calculus on its own. And for students who do not have this as an area of strength, jumping into AP Calculus could be a disaster without supplementary classes. My daughter switched to Algebra 5 at the semester because she hated having gaps in her knowledge (she hadn't taken supplementary classes and had been led to believe she was properly prepared) even though she got an A in the AP Calculus class the first semester. </p>
<p>Does your school have a course that would be a sequence to the IB math? If it does not, I would suggest that you explain this as the rationale for not continuing to the next level--there really is no next level!</p>
<p>As far as the science classes, I would think that the counselor explanation would suffice. I would think that this happens from time to time and university admissions offices would understand.</p>
<p>Shojomo -</p>
<p>I don't mean to hijack your thread, but what can you tell me about the University of Iowa, and the Writer's Workshop? Any impressions of the campus and Iowa City?</p>
<p>Isn't Alg I (or Integrated I in some schools) counted as a math for college, even if taken in 8th grade? A couple of posts seem to imply that it is not. Our district adds it to the HS transcript with the notation "Taken in 8th grade." That means someone who takes NO math senior year still has four years of math - Alg I, Geo, Alg II, (or Integrated I, II, III) Precalculus.</p>
<p>I have never heard of 9th grade science not counting. Our schools has a lab course called Earth Science for 9th grade, which is listed on the transcript as a lab science, so a student with bio and chem, or physics and chem, plus earth science, has 3 lab sciences. Is this an issue just for UCs?</p>
<p>Thanks for all the replies! What a storehouse of information and ideas. MotherofTwo, my daughter could have taken PreCalc as a junior and IB Math 1 as a senior, but she was hoping to leave open the option of AP Calc as a senior, so she took IB Math 1 as a junior. Students can take IB Math 1 from either PreCalc or Alg 2. I understand what someone said about the IB Math 1 being insufficient preparation of AP Calc, but I thought the summer course in PreCalc (along with the IB Math 1) would have been sufficient. It may not have been, but it's kind of irrelevant now because she refuses to take any math, and she likely wouldn't do well in it anyway. As for the IOWA Writing program, my daughter went last summer and has applied again this summer. She liked it very much and enjoyed the opportunity to write without the pressure of grades. The staff is excellent, the dorms were adequate. There weren't many planned social activities; most of the kids were writing or reading in their spare time. It didn't seem to be a summer campy kind of thing- more of a focused workshop. She hopes to go back this year.</p>
<p>Voronwe:</p>
<p>It depends on the district. In ours, no course, however advanced, that was not taken in high school, gets onto the high school transcript. Algebra 1 is an 8th grade course in our district, anyway.</p>
<p>My son had a similar dilemma. (Actually it didn't bother him in the least, but it was a dilemma for me!) He also did the IB diploma with highers in English, History and Art. Junior year he took the IB standard math course (I can't remember it was math studies or math methods -- the one for non-math kids) and environmental science. He took the IB exams at the end of junior year in those two courses and did okay (6's). </p>
<p>In his Senior year he didn't take any math or science as he wanted to continue with art and add creative writing (plus English, History, TOK, Spanish). Since this flew in the face of all advice from college admissions websites and how-to-get-into books, I was quite concerned, but in the end it didn't seem to have affected his eventual admission at Williams. Sometimes going after your strength with passion just works.</p>
<p>shojomo, I agree with Momrath - your daughter is probably better off to pursue her interests, than to try to bolster her transcript in areas where she is neither interested nor strong - especially given the fact that you say she has had to struggle to get B's in math and sciences. Whatever value an extra science course may have would be counteracted by a lower grade.</p>
<p>I want to add something else. You wrote:
[quote]
I guess I should add that she is not considering the ultra-selective colleges, but is looking at schools along the lines of Wash U, Emory, Brandeis, UC Davis, maybe Pomona.
[/quote]
All of those colleges - with the possible exception of Davis, which is very formulaic - are extremely selective. Class rank is very important at Wash. U and Pomona, which each turn away about 80% of their applicants. Emory & Brandeis are somewhat easier to get into by comparison, but they are still very selective. </p>
<p>I don't want to discourage you since I know nothing about your daughter or the school she is attending - but I do think that your daughter should round out her list to include some LACs and colleges that would be safeties. I have the same issue with my own daughter, and what I did was make a list of colleges and looked at the percentage of applicants each admits along with average SAT score, and then placed them in color-coded groups ranked by degree of selectivity. The reason I focused on the SAT scores was that is my daughter's weakest area - so I am deliberately looking in terms of what will be the biggest hurdle for her to overcome at each college. (Better to be safe than sorry). </p>
<p>Anyway, on my list, Emory & Brandeis ranked together in my purple group, a notch down from my red group (which had Barnard, one of my daughter's favorites) -- but coming out more selective than schools like Oberlin or Scripps - which ended up in my green group. I ended up with an even less selective blue group - and it was only at the blue group level where there were schools that I would see as probable safeties. </p>
<p>I don't think that others should follow my ranking system - again, I was measuring the schools against my daughter's weakest area -- and the relative selectivity might look different with a different set of criteria taken into account. Like your daughter and Momrath's son, my own daughter has some unusual things on her transcript that may stand out and win her admission at even the most selective of her choices -- but I think that it is especially important when a student has an atypical high school record to be cautious and include a wide range of colleges. I mean, bottom line, you never really know whether the unusual record is a hook that's going to capture the attention of an admissions committee and help win selection at a college you would have thought was near-impossible, or something that simply ends up looking deficient by comparison with the others, and messes up chances at a college you would have thought was a shoe-in.</p>