<p>
So, Hanna, you somehow can see a relationship between this statement and the events at VT? I don't -- I can't see this as anything other than a gratuitous political statement, completely out of place in any discussion of what happened in Virginia. The best response from edad would have been a simple, "Sorry, I goofed."</p>
<p>agreed -- some posters are getting a little off topic. From the video clips of the gunman that I viewed, he did not once mention the war in Iraq as motivation.</p>
<p>If VT were on my son's list, I would not ask him to even consider removing it. However, when visiting the school, the tragedy would certainly be in our minds as we look and evaluate the atmosphere, type of students, etc. I agree that fluke disasters like this could happen anywhere. It is the magnitude of the student's horrible action that makes this stand out more than other tragedies at other schools. I know NYU had a streak of suicides in a short period of time. MIT has had issues with student suicides. Johns Hopkins with murders/crimes. These things can happen anywhere.</p>
<p>As a mom, I would be worried about the fallout after the tragedy. Unfortunately, with young people, there is a definite "monkey see, monkey do" factor. When a young person commits suicide, the chances of those who are teetering with mental/emotional/mood/situational issues and are close to that person, go up in terms of aberrant behaviour, and suicide in particular. That is a prime question asked by mental health professionals when evaluating young people: has anyone close to you committed or attempted suicide recently? And though there are many at VT who are reacting well to this crisis, creating a renewed vigor, there are going to be those who may be tipped over into a crisis mode. Copy cat crimes are unfortunately prevalent, and the attention that Cho and VP is getting from all of this can be an issue.</p>
<p>The other issue that concerns me as a parent is the very step up of security on campus. Though on the surface, and overall it is a positive thing, for some individuals and families it is going to be a problem. My kids were in a large public highschool when the Columbine tragedy occurred. Because the district was profiled as similar to that of Columbine, vast security measures were taken. Initially, everyone was glad. Until kids started getting harrassed and punished for things that were ridiculous. You really do NOT want your kid in a school that will label your kid as a danger, miscreant, etc when that is not the case, and not all school administrators, security, police, courts are reasonable (think the Duke situation). When a high profile situation like this occurs, invariably the extra license to be extra vigilent is a problem for some in the system who do not have good common sense, and believe me, such people exist in abundance. To some degree, this backlash will occur on all campuses, but VT will be under particular scrutiny, and extra license and latitude witll be given to identify "odd" kids as dangerous in the interest of safety. Well and good, unless you have an "odd" kid that gets spotlighted mistakenly. </p>
<p>VT is an excellent deal for out of staters as well as Virginians. A fine school with fine academics at a bargain price. I do not recommend anyone who is interested in the school to take it off the list, but to examine the situation more carefully, and if the tragedy there has resulted in an environment that is not favorable to your child, then it is certainly to be considered in continued interest in the school.</p>
<p>corrranged wrote: "I would advise my child of the tremendous period of mourning, transition, and recovery that will present at VT in the years to come. Incoming students need to be prepared to face the aftermath."</p>
<p>I agree and would discourage my child from attending VT, at least for the next 5 or so years.</p>
<p>My older son is a freshman at Duke, who chose to go there despite the ongoing lacrosse case (and btw thoroughly enjoyed his freshman year and is glad he was not deterred my media coverage). When the administration suspended the students accused of the rape, I was dismayed with their reaction, but now after the Virginia Tech shooting, it brings up another question -- do the rights of the individual supersede the rights of the group?? What if the Duke players had been guilty, had not been suspended, and then had attacked again? Would the administration then be under fire for allowing them to continue their studies when they knew they had been accused before?</p>
<p>I never meant to imply there was a connection between the events at VT and the Iraq War. I dislike the sensationalism of the VT tragedy. I see no purpose served by trying to blame or find corrective actions. There are plenty of much bigger issues. We seem to be able to ignore the big issues and focus on a very small but sensational event. And I certainly do not mean to imply that the event was minor for those involved.</p>
<p>It's ok, you don't have to apologize for your opinion. We are just fortunate to live in a country where you are free to express yourself. What do you think about my previous post -- do the rights of the individual supersede the rights of the group? What do you think??</p>
<p>"I see no purpose served by trying to blame or find corrective actions. There are plenty of much bigger issues. We seem to be able to ignore the big issues and focus on a very small but sensational event. And I certainly do not mean to imply that the event was minor for those involved."</p>
<p>I don't think it is a small issue at all and I would bet that many other people feel the same way. I also think finding corrective action is enormously important. You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I completely respect your right to hold it, but campus safety in all its incarnations is huge to many of us. Perhaps, then, if you don't share the interest in that particular issue, you might leave it be rather than dismissing others' concerns. Not every problem in this world will be solved by troop withdrawal, and neither is every problem insignificant in contrast.</p>
<p>Looks like it's time to pass out the hair shirts again. I will never be happy until the last soul in the world has a condo, a flat screen and a Hybrid Toyota.</p>
<p>Stocktradermom, it really depends on the situation as whether the rights of an individual supersede the rights of a group. An individual brought into a hospital in critical condition has the right to be given everything needed to save his life, even if many of his organs are desperately needed by a group of people waiting for transplant or death. An extreme example. But to illustrate that there are individual rights that transcend group rights. Nor would we deliver a randomly named individual to a terrorist group in return for not having a bomb detonated in a heavily populated area. Not right. But when someone is accused of a crime, it becomes a dicey situation. No one wants a person who may be dangerous out and about, yet there are individual rights. There is a large gray area here. When should someone be "put away" whether to jail, an institutution? What specific critiria have to be met? </p>
<p>There was a situation some years ago where a young man was attacked by a "gang". All attackers were released on bail very quickly, though charged with assault and other crimes. A big problem for the young man and his family, as those dangerous people were now out and about in the same area. Also a problem for anyone else, if those attackers (they were found guilty and jailed eventually) continued their lifestyle (they had records of doing this sort of thing and some have still continued) of violence against others. This happens all of the time. THat is why a bail hearing and initial hearing occur, so that the most dangerous are put away even before they are found guilty by the justice system. Not fair to those found innocent, but rationally, some safeguards need to be in place. But it the situations where the system deems the persons or person safe enough not to be incarcerated somewhere, the rights of the group to safety are being compromised. DOn't know really where to draw the line, and fight is going on about this and will since there is not always the same answer.</p>
<p>The reactions are already occurring in other colleges, I see. Several students have been arrested, reported, etc at UColorado and Oregon and a number of schools for making inflammatory comments, appearing "dangerous". We'll see how many such incidents will occur in the next few months, and how many pan out as to pin pointing the dangerous ones. </p>
<p>I'll be willing to bet that VT will be very, very hard on any kind of such behaviour next year. For some kids, parents, that will be a relief. But if you have a kid that is a bit controversial, off beat--not dangerous, but not toeing the partyline--you parents know what I mean, VT may not be the best choice for you. The other schools will tend to relax a bit after this academic year, but VT will just be winding up, as right now they are still in shock. I've seen this happen many times following a tragedy, and it is no fun being a parent of a child who gets picked up because he attracts the attention of a not so bright administrator.</p>
<p>I also recommend a talk with kids about the tragedy, and that smart aleck remarks and suspicous activity is going to be dealt harshly. I do not excuse the kids for being foolish---but am just alerting parents who have kids of this propensity of the atmosphere that is going to be present. We all need to keep in mind that the enforcers of peace are not always the wisest and fairest folks, and some are a bit unbalanced themselves.</p>
<p>Ok, so here's another question I have. This is a question, not a judgment, since I've never had a kid in college before, ok? Linking the article from the Times that gave me the question: <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/19/us/19gunman.html?pagewanted=2&ref=education%5B/url%5D">http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/19/us/19gunman.html?pagewanted=2&ref=education</a></p>
<p>Here goes: Is dorm/community living a right or a privilege on campus? Not just this specific instance but in general. Aren't there standards of behavior that must be adhered to?</p>
<p>"For some kids, parents, that will be a relief. But if you have a kid that is a bit controversial, off beat--not dangerous, but not toeing the partyline--you parents know what I mean, VT may not be the best choice for you."</p>
<p>I think that's exactly right. My younger daughter is controversial and offbeat (she's playing with a dark phase -- think Avril Lavigne hair and makeup). She is a great writer who does eerie and suspenseful incredibly well (but not violent or inappropriate). Her English teacher usually loves, but daughter did this week's assignment as humor specifically because she wanted to point out to the teacher that she's not REALLY a disaffected freak, she just plays one in school.</p>
<p>I have not heard nor read what the parents of suitemates thought about the shooter. What did their kids share w/ regard to the extreme behavior? Did they observe the kid and think what is up? Did anybody ever see the family of the shooter visit? I have many questions about this. When you add up the parents of all roommates + step parents and siblings..that is a lot of folks. Did nobody make comments, have discussions? Maybe I have missed this in the press.</p>
<p>"I have not heard nor read what the parents of suitemates thought about the shooter. "</p>
<p>I haven't heard that either and wonder about it. It's going to be a major topic of discussion in our house and I intend to make the acquaintance of the room mate -- who will surely turn out to be a kindred spirit and future bridesmaid! I also intend to remind ZG that there are behaviors that are not acceptable and that she doesn't have to deal with them. In our rush not to pass judgment, perhaps we've lost the ability to judge.</p>
<p>Hazmat, I haven't seen that discussed either. I personally would not tolerate a roommate who refused to speak to me, but I'm an assertive fix-every-problem personality type; maybe these roommates took that rudeness in stride and didn't complain to their parents about it. Since they didn't try to switch rooms, my guess is that they are just easygoing, type-B guys in general. (I have laid-back friends who patiently tolerated non-bathing roommates, sex-in-a-bunkbed roommates, and other rude roommates whom I would have raised Cain over.)</p>
<p>You know Zoosermom, I can't direct you to the exact quote from the VT English prof, but one of them, in discussing the shooter's writing, made references to violence, graphic language, sex and disturbing imagery in other students' writing. The point was many students write on these themes, but this person's was notable different, I think she said something like "he didn't get out of it" or didn't go beyond it. The people who are reading kids writing on a daily basis probably have a good feel for the parameters of normal.
I'd be less worried about the girl who expresses herself consistently in clothes or hair or writing, than the impulsive son (not that its always a boy), who shoots his mouth off at the wrong time or in front of the wrong person.
It is like being in line at security at the airport, not the time for the nervous bomb jokes.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Here goes: Is dorm/community living a right or a privilege on campus? Not just this specific instance but in general. Aren't there standards of behavior that must be adhered to?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It's a privilege, and at most campuses it is treated as such. At my son's college, there are numerous offenses that will get you kicked out of housing but not expelled from the university. Marijuana possession in the dorm is an example.</p>
<p>I don't know how such situations are handled, though, at colleges that require all students to live on campus.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But if you have a kid that is a bit controversial, off beat--not dangerous, but not toeing the partyline--you parents know what I mean, VT may not be the best choice for you.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It never was the best choice. Remember the girl who used to post here last fall who felt like a freak at VT just because she was an urban black kid from Baltimore -- a species that does not seem to exist at VT? VT is a relatively conventional place.</p>
<p>In my experiences with colleges, there are a lot of "wierd" kids out there. There are also a lot of kids who are wrestling with mood, mental, social, emotional, learning, situational problems, and much drinking, drug abuse, vandalism, destructive personal relationships. It is a rare student that can dodge all of those bullets, and it is often difficult to pick out who is truly in trouble and who is just going through a bad stretch and will be all right. Most parents have no clue about what is going on with kids at college. Many very disturbed kids keep it to themselves when communicating with home.</p>
<p>Parents do not have much clout when it comes to switching their kids room assignments because there is too much undesirable behaviour and roommates not getting along to honor all of the requests that occur. THe tactic is to delay, delay, delay. I know parents who have had to intervene heavily, even resorting to legal intervention, and still relocating their student took a long time. I've even known parents who took their kids out because of inaction on part of the school and put their kids in off campus apartments. In schools that have a housing crunch, there is simply no where to put all of the kids who want to switch rooms. Also, colleges discourage changing rooms and roommates just as a matter of course. I know a student who wanted simply to switch rooms with another student, and the request was never honored even though it was an amicable trade with all parties in agreement. The kids just unofficially made the switch. So even complaining about a room mate with objectional behaviour does not easily result in a switch. In some schools you would be totally out of luck.</p>
<p>Zoosermom, schools have different rules about campus housing. Some schools require it. If they have built the facilities they require that they are occupied and paid for. So you have to jump hoops in such schools if your kid does NOT want to live on campus, particularly in the first couple of years there. Other schools have acute shortages in housing, and getting a room requires some doing and luck in a lottery. </p>
<p>EVERY housing contract I have seen makes campus housing a privilige that can be revoked for nearly any reason if the university decides it wants to do so. It is a fail safe provision that may or may not stand up to legal scrutiny, but the school will certainly eject a student if issues reach a certain point. But since there are so many issues at college, it generally takes a heck of a lot to reach that point. Someone has to really make a concerted effort to go through the complaint hierarchy and follow up, or the the incident has to be a big one, not the usual stuff that goes on, and a lot of stuff goes on.</p>
<p>Many years ago, I had issues with a roommate in a campus apartment. Despite numerous complaints and followups, the roommate was not removed, and I finally left after finding an opening that was not as favorable of a situation for me. The student caused issues for other students and later left or was kicked out of the school, but it took a lot of time. And this is a top 25 private school with top sticker prices. There are many college roommate horror stories.</p>
<p>I am not impressed with the mental health situation in this country; in fact, it is a shame of this society. Colleges are not much better in their ability to deal with these issues. That there is a clinic available to students is a plus that those who are not in college do not have, but there is little interaction among faculty, undergrads, and mental health professionals at a school. Larger unis and research facilities seem to me to be particularly disjointed that way. I am steering away from places like that for my son, though if he really ends up wanting such a school, I would not refuse to consider it. It is not unusual that even the faculty at colleges have a mental health history that includes regular sabbaticals at the local sanitarium. You can't go into a creative writing, playwriting, poetry, any writing course in most colleges that doesn't have some truly macabre works. THe same with art and music and opinions in general.</p>
<p>Having said all of this, there appears in the case if the VT shooter, that he was even further "off the wall" and showed some true danger signs that should have required follow up. But if VT should go through the police blotter and pick out all students reported with such charges, and then hit up the campus clinic and request reports from students and faculties for "dangerous" possibilities, I fear that there would be many, many kids reported. Especially in the aftermath of this tragedy. Civil rights also have to observed in all of this which make it a complex undertaking. </p>
<p>Don't want to be all doom and gloom. Roommates can indeed be kindred spirits, best friends and future bridesmaids. Does happen. But mismatches and undesirable roommates happen far mor often than most of us parents want to believe.</p>
<p>"on't want to be all doom and gloom. Roommates can indeed be kindred spirits, best friends and future bridesmaids. Does happen. But mismatches and undesirable roommates happen far mor often than most of us parents want to believe."</p>
<p>You know, it's really ok to say that, especially to someone like me who has never yet had a child go off to college and may have somewhat of an idealistic point of view.</p>