Would you let your daughter go here?

My daughter’s science teacher recommender keeps assuring me that universities will protect undergraduates, and this sort of thing only happens to the grad students, but that doesn’t make me feel any better about having a daughter going into science.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/09/she-was-a-rising-star-at-a-major-university-then-a-lecherous-professor-made-her-life-hell/

As a fairly recent alum I can say that this is not the norm - it is a case of one bad egg making an otherwise fantastic university look bad. And unfortunately, problems like this are not unique to U of R - sexual harassment, inappropriate behavior, favoritism, and retaliation exists everywhere in academia, corporations, and life in general. That being said, the statement “this sort of thing only happens to the grad students” is ignorant. It could happen to an undergraduate or a graduate student. However, as I said before, this is not the norm, and I wouldn’t let this article that went viral impact your view of the school.

One thing that I think should be made extremely clear is that the university president (Joel Seligman)‘s statement (https://www.rochester.edu/president/memos/2017/eeoc-filing.html) was not aimed at defending alleged misconduct - sexual or otherwise. The point was to make it very clear that action was taken - two investigations (one of them was independent) were conducted and the allegations were unsubstantiated. It does not indicate whether the allegations are true or not - but that it was not possible to corroborate the accusers’ stories. I’m guessing that it would be rather difficult to dismiss a faculty member who was not found guilty of a complaint. As the president of the university, it is unlikely that Seligman is able to express anything other than the facts in front of him without any legal action. If something slipped through the cracks here then it is incredibly unfortunate, but it is impossible to know without all of the facts in front of us. In my experience, the university has worked hard to make student safety a priority and has never been dismissive, especially on issues as serious as the one we see here.

That being said, the University of Rochester is extremely safe and unfortunately the only stories you will see in the national news are the negative ones. Some incredible things happen in research at U of R - from pharmaceutical development to ground-breaking optics innovation. There are more undergraduate research opportunities at U of R than almost any other University in the country, and it offers the chance to work with world class faculty in dozens of fields. This is not typically at the expense of dealing with abusive faculty, as most of the professors are dedicated to their students and are highly respected by the faculty and student body. I can say this on behalf of friends who worked in research at U of R and from my own experience. Having been a teaching assistant, research assistant (both as an undergraduate and grad student), and receiving two degrees at U of R, I can say that I would feel comfortable recommending U of R to a prospective student. I hope this answers the question for you or anyone else feeling similarly.

Obviously, it is difficult for an outsider to evaluate this situation but the fact that tenured faculty has not only spoken out publicly (rare), but resigned and hired lawyers (even rarer) means at the very least this controversy will be simmering on campus for some time.

The president’s press release is amazing from an outsider’s point of view. If the town hall or any of the discussions of this issue show up on YouTube, please post a link.

Oh, yeah it doesn’t look good at all. At the very least, it would appear that this professor is of very low character and has behaved inappropriately. But we don’t know all the details of the investigations. If something can’t be substantiated, then it’s difficult to invoke disciplinary action - then you have a lawsuit on the other side.

Either way, the point of my post was to shed light on the fact that this is one bad guy out of 2,300 tenure track faculty, and I don’t believe that it is reflective of the University’s culture. Like I said, you aren’t going to hear about the good guys in the news.

It’s not one bad guy, according to the story. If the university acknowledged that at the very least this guy had behaved inappropriately and pushed boundaries and then other faculty still contributed towards making the environment hostile for those who spoke up, then there is more than one bad apple.
This is very disturbing for me. I know three faculty members at UR and many students who go there. It’s a university that’s been very high on my d19’s list. It’s not that the harassment has happened that gives me pause because I do agree it happens everywhere. It’s the university allowing it to happen and in some ways encouraging it that bothers me. Im not sure how a parent of a daughter contemplating UR wouldn’t have pause at knowing their child may very well be sitting in this creep’s classroom.
I will be watching to see what happens with this.

This is unacceptable, of course, but it’s not a problem unique to a single university. The linked article cites profs from other universities too. To answer your question, yes, I would let my daughter go to UR (it was one of her final three.)

Post 3

Post 4

I think post 4 may be closer to the truth – the university investigation found that the professor was “inappropriate,” but did not violate “policy 106.” – A professor having sexual relationships or sexually-charged discussions with students he supervises should be clearly against policy. Moreover, the EEOC complaint alleges that witnesses who wanted to come forward were not interviewed.

@mom2twogirls ok, yeah. Saying “one bad guy” isn’t exactly correct either. I guess neither is saying “one incident”. It’s just really tough for me to read this article and assert that there was a team of professors actively seeking retaliation against those who had filed the complaints - whether true or not, it does sound like hearsay as almost no detail was provided to back up those claims.

I guess I’m also not sure what the university has done to allow or encourage inappropriate behavior in this case. The student/professor in this story, Kidd, waited 9 years (2016) to come forward. And when she did, an investigation took place. I am not surprised that investigators were unable to substantiate a violation of University policy from that time, even if a violation took place. I have to believe that in some ways, their hands were tied. As for the 2013 complaint of “toxic experiences”, no details were offered, so I’m not sure that I can form an opinion on that matter.

All I’m saying is that it’s a bit presumptuous to say that U of R actively allowed or encouraged inappropriate behavior. In fact, Seligman specifically discouraged sexual harassment, retaliation, and hostility - I think that this is far more representative of the U of R faculty and it’s culture. We can all draw our own conclusions as we follow this story, but that’s just my two cents as someone who attended U of R as an undergrad & grad student and has this information put in front of them.

Edit: Reading this, you could make the argument that the University allowed inappropriate behavior by not having stringent enough policies. But I still don’t necessarily believe there was an active decision to allow it.

@AroundHere Yeah, I entirely agree that it should be against policy. But I’m also saying that it probably goes without saying for 99% of professors. I don’t believe that U of R professors are all behaving inappropriately just because it isn’t explicitly written in the rulebook.

I’d be surprised if the written policy is not changed as a result of this issue.

See the eighth paragraph of the article - click on the words “detailed 111 page document.” (It goes to a file-sharing site so maybe not allowed on this board?)

I had issues opening the document. And to be honest, it sounds too long to read in detail. Are the allegations only against Jaeger or does it include information regarding other faculty as well?

Yes, I would let my daughter go there. But first, I would review the allegations with her and have an open discussion. She’s an adult and I trust her and where she goes to college is her decision.

I don’t think my job as the parent of an adult is to say “no”. My job is to prepare her for the world (which is why she carries pepper spray). There are Jaegers everywhere.

UR investigator Nearpass said he was inappropriate, had an affair with a grad student and liked to push the boundaries. That isn’t just hearsay.

He is still teaching students and there is no mention of UR doing anything to reprimand him or limit his power over students. That is allowing inappropriate behavior. If they do nothing to stop harassment of those who come forward, then they are encouraging it.

@ekdad12 I also wouldn’t block my daughter from going there. We have an upcoming open house there and will go. But my kids listen to my opinions and advice and I would like to see the university has taken steps to prevent abuse of power. They will play a part in what decision my daughter makes about college choice.

@mom2twogirls my “hearsay” comments were regarding the retaliation claims (which can be difficult to substantiate) and whether a university policy was broken. I don’t doubt that something inappropriate happened - and that it is entirely wrong. And I’m not questioning the fact that the university policy needs to be updated… just saying that the University may actually have a difficult time firing professor(s) after the fact without facing backlash of a lawsuit. They also can’t really go beyond stating the outcome of the investigation without facing defamation - even if they might think some university policy was violated. I’m saying their apparent lack of action doesn’t necessarily mean they allow or condone the actions we have been discussing.

Well, if other people have left because it became difficult for them to work there, this one could as well. They don’t have to fire him but they can limit his access to students. They can avoid mentioning his name while saying they are updating their policy or taking some sort of actions to ensure their professors are behaving professionally and not abusing their power.

Oh, I’m sure they will update their policy. Even if for no other reason than the pressure they are feeling now. In Seligman’s statement he mentioned that they have already made several updates over the past few years - not sure exactly what, so take that for whatever it’s worth.

Also - it was announced by Seligman that Jaeger will no longer be teaching his undergraduate class this semester. It definitely comes across as reactive, but at least it’s something.

Edit: Here’s an article outlining some of the University’s actions post town-hall meeting -
http://www.chronicle.com/article/U-of-Rochester-Professor/241172

I second the comments of ekdad212. This situation unfortunately is all too common among grad students earning coveted positions in highly regarded departments and their mentors. It most definitely define the U of R. As a parent of an alum I was shocked when I first read the article in yesterday’s NY TIMES. President Seligman began his appointment when my d was a freshman and is very well regarded, very approachable. Perhaps his comments comparing this situation to the Rolling Stone/UVA situation were unfortunate but I would not want anyone to think that this type of situation is rampant on campus throughout the university. Universities have protocols for dealing with faculty and grad students reporting incidents and following this week’s town hall, they will revisit those protocols fairly quickly.

I am not fully informed on the entirety of the situation but my initial reaction is to put blame where it belongs. If the professor did what he is accused of he is first and foremost to blame. Now if the University deemed the allegations to be categorically and fully false I understand no action being taken. However it seems, from what I read so far, the findings are something in the middle and the University is falling back on following policy and not having done or proven enough for actions to be taken. If that is the case then the current policies clearly do not put the safety of the students first and needs to be revised. So while I don’t blame the University for what an individual member of the faculty did I do hold them accountable for how they deal with allegations.

Overall with the information I have seen so far I am disappointed in how it appears to have been handled and disappointed in the policies currently in place. So until convinced otherwise University of Rochester has moved way down my list and more importantly way down on my daughter’s list for consideration.

@skateguy50 I know, right? It’s just bizarre to me that the president of the university and the chairman of the department have chosen this as their hill to die on. I keep thinking there must be something else to the story, but whatever it is my kid doesn’t need to apply to a school where there’s a civil war breaking out.

@AroundHere just out of curiosity, is your kid planning on majoring in Brain and Cognitive Sciences? If that’s the case, then I wouldn’t recommend going to U of R. But I would venture to guess that there isn’t nearly as much turmoil and divide on campus as you may think from the coverage on this issue.

On the other side, I wouldn’t exactly say that the average student is impacted by this at all in their day-to-day. Not to down-play the seriousness of this issue, but 95% (or more) of students on campus are going about business as usual and don’t have the time/care enough to get involved with this. Give it a couple more weeks and that group will be even smaller. We are following the story closer than most and seeing some of the publicity, but 200 students protesting on the quad for a few days is hardly a civil war. My guess is that in a year, most people will have forgotten this even took place without it being brought up. I’m not saying that’s right or wrong, but the truth is most 18-22 year-olds are more worried about their schoolwork, internship applications, or what party is coming up on Saturday than these things.

When I was a student at U of R, there were plenty of protests where people were yelling on the steps of the library about something with a megaphone. They weren’t quite as publicized as this, but 99% of students just put their headphones in and kept walking to their class, slightly annoyed by the person yelling in a megaphone. You can actually see this in some of the news footage of the recent protests. Just trying to paint a more realistic picture of what campus is probably like right now.