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<p>Even if this subjective statement is true, there are certainly more than 1% of Americans who take their college educations seriously.</p>
<p>*In the US, most of our kids take a college education for granted, and the heck with the consequences. A BS Electrical Engineering or a BFA Elbonian Basket Weaving, who cares. Both are doable, so why not party till we drop, et cetera. If money’s not there, there’s Sallie Mae, FAFSA, et. al. *</p>
<p>I don’t see this. Many students are wary of accepting loans that aren’t subsidized and they are all too cognizant of what expenses they will have when they graduate.
Often students attend the first two years of college at a community college to shave expenses even if that doesn’t guarantee admittance to a 4 year school.</p>
<p>But the bottom line remains that in the US, college is a given, with a variety of ways to get it financed (from FAFSA to loansharks to First National Bank of Dad) and even more ways to get admitted from HYPS to HYPS^-1 and then, with most college degrees, even the daunted BFA in Elbonian Basket Weaving, one has a chance of moving ahead. Even without immediate funds for college, one’s options of working a couple retail or service jobs while part time, community college, etc. exist. There are tons of other options even for adult students - online, part time, and the such…</p>
<p>In other parts of the world, the odds of a better life without a college degree are nowhere as good, hence one is more likely to do anything to (a) get in (b) get out in a timely fashion and (c) join the workforce.</p>
<p>Consider for example another country that has high competition for university entrance exams; only about 10% get in. There exist private colleges, but at very high cost compared to what people make there, and not as good quality. Despite the fact that the flood of graduates (from public, private, and foreign schools) has cheapened wages such that a doctor starts at $500/month and medical school costs $500/month, people are flocking to college because that’s their only way out. </p>
<p>US students can afford to take college a bit ‘less’ seriously than some of these students because they have way too many options that are unavailable elsewhere.</p>
<p>“In the US, most of our kids take a college education for granted, and the heck with the consequences. A BS Electrical Engineering or a BFA Elbonian Basket Weaving, who cares.”
You are taking an assumption which you have made, which has no basis in fact, and have drawn biased conclusions based on that assumption.
The fact that there are more options and opportunities to get a college degree in the US does not mean that the students in college don’t take going to college seriously. Community college students and State Univ students[ who more times than not could not afford private college tuitions] often drop out, not because they are bored or decide to do something else- like go to the beach- but because college IS demanding and hard, and they cant afford to work 8-10 hrs a day in some retail store at minimum wage, AND pay for a car AND gas AND car insurance AND college tuition, AND then not pass their exams because they don’t have enough hours in the day left to study, or realize that they cant graduate in 2-4 yrs because of spending cuts that have resulted in the reduction or elimination of required classes. So push may come to shove, and they have to give up the something that they can’t afford to do any longer- college.</p>
<p>“Even without immediate funds for college, one’s options of working a couple retail or service jobs while part time, community college, etc. exist”
You make this sound so easy. Ever try it yourself? AND successfully complete a 4 year degree??..I didn’t think so…</p>
<p>Let me clarify…</p>
<p>They don’t NEED to take college AS seriously AS those in OTHER countries. </p>
<p>The fact that we have a lot more universities and graduates than we need, the fact that we’re spending billions on tuition for things that -on the surface- have little practical value, and the fact that the way the country is headed, a college education is the least of our concerns, plus the fact that college has created a bit of a sub-culture whose equal I have not seen in other parts of the world and many other factors seem to suggest to me that the typical US teenager can afford to take college a bit less seriously than their counterparts in other parts of the world.</p>
<p>For every student that slows down or drops out due to costs, there are plenty more that are in it for many reasons - all perfectly justified, mind you - and still don’t NEED to take college as seriously as those in other countries.</p>
<p>Other countries’ students do things in different ways. I promptly shelved my Civil Engineering degree and moved to the US for more college in a different area simply because there was nothing left to build in my birth country. My sister in law could afford to shelve her law degree - the best she could get was insurance agent. </p>
<p>But, as I was studying my tail off taking 21 hours a semester as First National Bank of Dad was paying, in dollars, I could not help but notice the weekly frat parties, sorority formals, panty raids, BFA Elbonian Basket Weaving majors and BSEE’s alike, all thinking about having a good time first and about what happens next month - maybe …</p>
<p>Even today, as DD1 is prepared to start college later this month, I can’t help but wonder how seriously is she (or any of her friends) about the next four+ years. They made the grades in HS, got admitted, they’re good students, but I’m not sure they have the big picture in focus yet. Many will change their majors several times - an option other parts of the world simply do not have - and others will take an extra year or two to finish - again, not likely elsewhere - and, maybe like me, will have the option to shelve their degree altogether and study something else, or go for the MRS degree, or the Work-For-Dad’s-Business degree, or what else.</p>
<p>“I could not help but notice the weekly frat parties, sorority formals, panty raids, BFA Elbonian Basket Weaving majors and BSEE’s alike, all thinking about having a good time first and about what happens next month - maybe …”
then I guess you did not notice all the hundreds of thousands of hard working students studying in their dorm rooms, or in the library…Too bad, becasue it has colored your opinion of college students THESE DAYS, when it is FAR more expensive to go to college than when you or I went, and has also blinded you to the realities that millions of college students [ most without rich daddies] in this country face today.
So how about you stop making sweeping assumptions about what todays college student in the US is most likely like, and how they “have it made” and don’t really have to go to college i.e.“go for the MRS degree, or the Work-For-Dad’s-Business degree”
based on what you saw 20++ years ago. You didnt’ see everything then, only what your envious eyes chose to notice…</p>
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<p>This idealization of the US philosophy of US education only works if your experience is isolated to well-off performing suburbs and neighborhoods where everyone is socialized to aspire to go off for some form of higher education. </p>
<p>This is certainly not the reality in most poor, working-class, and even lower-middle class rural and inner-city areas where public high schools are effective warehouses/dropout factories for the majority of their students save a few exceptions who beat the odds or those who managed to “escape” by attaining admission/scholarships to a rigorous public magnet or private/boarding school. </p>
<p>While I was one of those “escapees” who ended up at a NYC public magnet, many of my elementary and junior high school classmates are serving time in Rikers, eking out a bare existence on a series of minimum wage jobs, begging for spare change, and/or are on public assistance because they are unemployable with their current skillsets/issues. </p>
<p>Hence, we Americans have our own problems with creating a group who are effectively denied the promise of even a minimal public education before we even get to college. Moreover, we’re doing this while fostering a cultural environment dismissive of true intellectualism and learning* that affect even those who end up going to our most elite colleges and universities. </p>
<ul>
<li>Why is it that US pop culture tends to denigrate and most mainstream high school environments foster hostile attitudes** towards those who excel academically…especially in STEM fields as “Nerds” and “Geeks”?</li>
</ul>
<p>** All from accounts of college classmates, co-workers, and friends who recounted such hostile experiences of being bullied and physically assaulted for achieving academically…experiences alien to me as one who attended a school where being an A student and/or being on the math/debate teams are cool and it was the football players and other athletes in popular mainstream high school sports who were sometimes unjustly picked on for their supposed “intellectual inferiority”.</p>
<p>Don’t punish your child by picking their education let your child pick their own school it’s their life now</p>
<ul>
<li>Why is it that US pop culture tends to denigrate and most mainstream high school environments foster hostile attitudes** towards those who excel academically…especially in STEM fields as “Nerds” and “Geeks”?
this is a really good question. Perhaps a partial answer is US pop culture is mostly populated by those who did not go on to college? just a guess, but most of those in the entertainment/ music business and who are driving those businesses are not college graduates.
That doesn’t explain the pop culture bias against STEM students, but maybe it is a reflection of what happened in HS-to today’s pop culture stars/ leaders. Were their talents taken seriously by their teachers? or were they dismissed? who knows??
But it is an interesting question. I remember reading a while back that when Bill Gates visited China, he was treated “like a God”, and few there knew who Brittany Spears was. …</li>
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<p>cobrat, you are greatly exaggerating the situation regarding poor rural communities. I live in one of those communities, and am only too aware of how poor our local school is. That’s why DW and I, at considerable financial sacrifice, have both our kids in fee-based schools (one Catholic, one public). But our local school is not in any sense a “dropout factory.” Graduation rate (% of kids entering ninth grade who graduate in four years) is well over 90%. Many kids get solid vocational training in HS. Many more go on to CC or to lower-tier state schools. Perhaps 10% go to private colleges. </p>
<p>I will not defend the American education system. But it is not in nearly the dire straits in which you paint it. </p>
<p>Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using CC App</p>
<p>There were plenty of serious / studious types when I was in college; but just because one pulls a 4.0 in BFA EBW does not make them ‘serious’ in the sense that if said BFA EBW does not work out he/she is toast. People in other parts of the world do not have the luxury. In other words, people have the luxury of choice, something other countries do not have (as much of or at all). </p>
<p>Last time I was in school was 2000, incidentally, when I finished a Purdue graduate engineering degree. Everyone was serious there, for obvious reasons, as we were ranked #3 at the time. </p>
<p>The bottom line is that it’s all about available options. If you seriously think that a ho-hum average senior in the US has similar options as a ho-hum average senior in other parts of the world, be my guest. </p>
<p>You can’t appreciate how many options you had till you have none left.</p>
<p>I do not think lowering standards and giving everyone a diploma through grade inflation does anyone any good.</p>
<p>Just for the record, about 9 percent of Indians have a college degree or more, compared to 27 percent of Americans. If the standards were the same and the effects of immigration were ignored, I wonder how different the percentages would be.</p>
<p>Nor does it do anyone any good to flood the market with college graduates. Raise the admissions standards to the tune that one needs a 700+700+3.5 to attend Directional State U, and 750+750+3.75 to attend Flagship State U and we talk. </p>
<p>You may have read or heard of the book “Player Piano” by Kurt Vonnegut. He gives an excellent - if hilarious - view of what happens when every job this side of the railroad tracks requires one or more college degrees…</p>
<p>High Schoolers will study (to learn) when there is more at stake. Likewise, their parents may become a lot more involved if they know that it’s either 750+750+3.75 or Walmart.</p>
<p>Look at it another way. In Europe, most professional sports leagues have the concept of promotion and demotion of teams from/to the minor leagues to the major leagues. if you’re a lousy NFL team at 1 win and 14 losses, and are playing the other NFL team with an 1-14 record, and neither team gets demoted to play in the XFL or Indoor Arena Football or what not, what do you care about winning the last game? On the other hand, if you know you’ll be demoted and go from NFL salary to farm team salary…</p>
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<p>Sounds like your local school has a much better record than that of several college classmates or those of my Mississippi cousins whose local area also had so many crappy private schools that their parents ended up sending them off to high priced Catholic or topflight East Coast boarding schools. </p>
<p>One friend from a rural NE town attended a high school where he estimated at least a quarter dropped out by the beginning of senior year and less than the top half of his graduating class went on to any form of higher ed or joined the armed forces…the rest ended up in/out of prison, public assistance, and/or eking out hand-to-mouth existences on several minimum wage jobs. Even so, his education even as a B student was such that his college forced him into a remedial program for a year before they felt he was ready to take on “college-level work”. </p>
<p>Several other college classmates from rural areas in the South and Midwest had worse accounts about their local schools whether through experiencing it as one of the few exceptions like my NE town friend or mostly having parents willing and able to sacrifice like your family to send them off to private/boarding schools.</p>
<p>I fully agree Turbo. I think the current job market for new college grads will change some minds.</p>
<p>I wonder if the kids described by cob rat ever deserved to graduate, forget even going to college.</p>
<p>About the dropout rates from the Elites, it’s about 5 percent. I would expect it to be 0 percent. These kids are supposed to be the creme de la creme. I have never heard of an IIT dropout.</p>
<p>Enough of the monologue baiting. I’ll bite. [Yet</a> another IIT suicide | Deccan Chronicle](<a href=“http://www.deccanchronicle.com/tabloid/chennai/yet-another-iit-suicide-357]Yet”>http://www.deccanchronicle.com/tabloid/chennai/yet-another-iit-suicide-357)</p>
<p>Or they get expelled rather than suicide? (which is really tragic-- this is not to make light of this awful choice)</p>
<p>[Delhi</a> IIT to Review Expulsion of 12 Scheduled Caste Students | GroundReport](<a href=“http://www.groundreport.com/World/Delhi-IIT-to-Review-Expulsion-of-12-Scheduled-Cast/2863385]Delhi”>http://www.groundreport.com/World/Delhi-IIT-to-Review-Expulsion-of-12-Scheduled-Cast/2863385)
So 20% get expelled? Thats much higher than the 5% dropout rate at ivys. Dont know how many are “expelled” from ivys, but doubt its 20%. Oh wait, I guess that means they are too easy on them. Must be grade inflation :rolleyes:</p>