Would you think my D. was nuts if she.....

Parents Forum
1

<p>chose UVM Honors college over Oberlin?</p>

<p>She just came back from an admitted students day at Oberlin, and, while very impressed with the presentation by the faculty and student panel, did not feel comfortable there. Spending the night with a student was a great idea, but in this case, only served to reinforce her fear that Oberlin might not be a good fit for her.</p>

<p>While she considers herself a liberal, she feels she may not be "liberal enough (!)" for the kids she spent time with at Oberlin. She is probably trying to express that she might be more "mainstream" than the students at Oberlin....for example, she likes watching college sports and routing for "her team", (something she never really thought about when she chose mostly small LAC's and small universities to apply to.) Yesterday, she went to a women's lacrosse game at Oberlin on a beautiful sunny evening; there were 10 kids watching the game. There were other examples that I hesitate to include, as they reinforce the Oberlin stereotypes we were hoping were just that!</p>

<p>Vermont is the only "larger" college she applied to, and she liked everything about the place. We don't have time to re-visit, but she feels she doesn't really need to. Her only concern is whether the academic experience in the Honors college will be good enough. I also think that the "name brand" of Oberlin is impressive to her; i.e., that the academics are so well respected, that the school produces so many PhD's (which, by the way, is NOT something she wants to do). A "prestige" thing? Probably. The other 3 prestigious schools she applied to were Tufts, Brandeis and Vassar -- all wait lists. </p>

<p>I have no problem with her going to UVM. (Although from the title of my post, you might think that, lol!) Again, it's that "name" thing, I think. (in fact, I, too, LOVED UVM, Burlington, etc) I'm just trying to reassure her that the academic experience is what SHE makes of it; that the opportunities are there for her, especially in an honors program. She's smart, but not at all "a grind;" and, she wants a GREAT college experience -- the whole experience, not just the academics. And, she's afraid that people will think she's nuts (like her English teacher! - his words: "Oberlin? Great school! Vermont? Party school, but really beautiful") And, so, the post.</p>

<p>Any words of advice?</p>

2

<p>It sounds as though Oberlin would not be the right fit for her. A boy from our town had a similar experience a few years ago on his post-acceptance Oberlin visit. He realized it just wasn't the right fit. It is a wonderful school, but is only wonderful for the right kid! UVM sounds like the right place for your D, and the hell with what everyone else says. Go for it. Let her cheer for her team, make the most of the academic offerings,and be happy.</p>

3

<p>Good for your D - she knew in her heart Oberlin isn't right and it seems by your description that she will get over the name-thing. You said it all:

[quote]
I'm just trying to reassure her that the academic experience is what SHE makes of it; that the opportunities are there for her, especially in an honors program. She's smart, but not at all "a grind;" and, she wants a GREAT college experience -- the whole experience, not just the academics. And, she's afraid that people will think she's nuts

[/quote]

She will be the one who's nuts if she doesn't value her own instincts (and listen to her mom ;))!</p>

4

<p>So, she goes to UVM Honors, gets A's. If she likes it, she stays. If not - then she will be a great transfer candidate. As long as they have the courses she wants for the first year, she's set.</p>

5

<p>I strongly believe that every LAC has a dominant social and intellectual culture. Before going to one, a student ought to understand that culture and either believe it "fits" her, or not mind that she may be outside the mainstream. It sounds as if your daughter determined from her overnight visit that the dominant culture at Oberlin doesn't quite fit her, and from your description of how disappointed she felt at the sparsely attended athletic event, it also sounds like she would prefer to be inside the mainstream at whatever college she attends, rather than part of a small group that is outside of it. That's not to say that the small group she saw at that game is not extremely happy at Oberlin. They probably are. There are kids who are perfectly comfortable, and who even enjoy, being outside the mainstream, whatever it is. They find their small niche, and they are content. Like you, I don't have one of those kids! Anyway, I don't know anything about UVT (and Oberlin is obviously a great school) but I think if the Honors Program offers a reasonable alternative , it's worth serious consideration.</p>

6

<p>I think the kind of discomfort she felt at Oberlin is very important for the experience she would have. She would have trouble being "her" and that is just not good. I say go with UVM. It certainly has a greata regional rep, if not beyond, and the Honors College thing at these state U's can be excellent (altho I have no specific knowledge of UVM's). Academics is important and it will be what she makes of it, as you say. But the "whole person" is equally as important, if not more so. I vote that she should not go against her instinct here.</p>

7

<p>My daughter came to the same conclusion after we visited Oberlin, even though it was her gpa's alma mater. She didn't even bother applying. We have several good friends with children in honors programs at state schools, Penn St, Univ of ARIZ and UNC, all are flourishing. One of the things they foudn is that there AP's and placement tests put them into sophomore or junior level classes right away. They were able to avoid alot of the monster lecture hall classes that plague the large state universities.</p>

8

<p>It's worth it to call Tufts and let them know she would attend if she were given a chance. Send additional materials--creative writings, something. I know a boy who got off the waitlist in July last year.</p>

9

<p>Hey there ;-). I wrote you a long email to the one you sent me and then AOL quit when I was almost done and then I had to go to NYC on the weekend and have yet to get back to my pile of emails. But since you wrote about this on the forum here and because anything I had to say about this issue is not of a private nature, I'll just post my thoughts again here, ok? well, I won't wait for your answer, LOL!</p>

<p>If we were ONLY talking UVM, that is one thing. Already it is a great college and not like a typical state university. It is of medium size, something like 6500 undergraduates and more of the students are from out of state than in state. But that aside, the Honors College is an academic "niche" within this already very good college. As I have mentioned before, my D got into it and was val and she has three friends, all from the top ten in her class who are freshmen this year in Honors College. The previous year's val is also at UVM. I can think of the sal from another year who is getting ready to graduate. There are many students of this calibur there, maybe not all, but enough of them. Your D would have the challenge of the Honors College, mixed in with the other things she was hoping for in a college. You already know she loved Burlington (I enjoyed our night! and will think of you when I am back there tomorrow night). She has access to such a fun small city with lots to do. My own kids repeatedly proclaim, had they not grown up in VT, they'd have thought going to college in Burlington was fun. Then there is the area beyond that city...the mountains, ski area, lakes, etc. There are a variety of types of kids there. There is a wide variety of courses/departments which might be good for a kid who is undecided about what to study. Is the name thing really gonna matter once she starts college? It just seems the topic of convo right now amongst her senior friends. And really, who cares? It is all relative. Around here, people would be more "wow" about UVM, what can I say? And even if Oberlin is more selective, it is not going to matter if she really did not have a gut feeling of "I love this place!", ya know? And there is something to be said for being at the top of the heap in school (something to be said of course about being a small fish in a big pond too, depends how you look at it). She has a chance to stand out here. There might be special perks about being in Honors College. I know she wants the challenge but she also is not the type to want the total grind...she wants to have fun too. While UVM is not the total rah rah school, there definitely is some of that to be had there....witness this year's basketball team!! And ice hockey is really big there too. She can attend that stuff if she wants it. This is clearly not a slacker school. Good students go to UVM. Definitely above average. The Honors College has kids from the top of the heap. It's there for her. </p>

<p>At this point, if I were her, I would tune out the "advice givers" who are judging on name basis only....but I would have her jot down on paper all the pros or aspects of each college .....anything that comes to mind (ie., has sports teams with school spirit, has a small niche in a larger university, has local things to do in walking distance, has challenge, hasa X field of study, has study abroad, etc. ) and once she jots down these two lists, it might become clearer to her which list has more of what she wants. </p>

<p>I realize the pressure coming from those at her school or in your community where the name of the college is talked about a lot. I know this is common in a lot of folks' communities and I thank our lucky stars that this competitive mode of thought is NILL here and so that factor does not come into play. The decision of where to go to college for my kids rested solely on which one they liked the best. There just was not that "outside" influence but I realize that is prevalent in so many communities. Maybe she can shut that out and make the decision as if these others were not talking to her about it at all. She should talk to kids who GO to these schools. Again, I would love to help by giving her the names/contacts of my D's friends in Honors College so she can find out first hand from other good students who took this route (these girls are smart but also like having fun...and are also engaged outside the classroom). One is my D's best friend. She originally wanted to apply to Tufts and Wellesley but since she could go to UVM for free and since the family has three girls going to college next year (all at UVM, all very bright), she did not apply to the others. I wish your D could overnight at UVM to get a feel so she could make a good comparison. </p>

<p>In the end, I hope she goes with her gut and also goes where she has a sense of that she would love it, and not go where she has some hesitation, not a good way to start off. She should be mucho excited about where she is going to go....tell her to use THAT criteria, lol! </p>

<p>Talk soon :D</p>

10

<p>By the way, tell her that last year, when my D narrowed down her college acceptances, she highly considered Tufts and Smith and returned to them but not to Penn where she had gotten in. She would have chosen to go to Smith or Tufts over Penn. Some on the student forums here, when I discussed this last year, would have called her nuts too. She did not care about prestige or rankings. She felt that Tufts or Smith better fit what she was looking for in a college than Penn (that that she disliked Penn but the others fit HER better). I think in the end, this is what it is all about. And again, with UVM, we are not even just talking UVM, but the Honors College, so the challenge will likely be fine for her. And not that you would go to a school with the intent to transfer, that still IS an option should it ever come to that. But going to school and picking the right one, goes beyond just the academic factor, albeit that aspect is also important.
Susan</p>

11

<p>I wouldn't expect to see too many more fans in the stands at Tufts, Brandeis or Vassar either, though these are three excellent schools, though Brandeis may be less liberal than Oberlin. I'd be surprised if Vassar, or even Tufts is. Sounds like Colgate or Bowdoin would be optimal, but based on her results they would have been tough admits too.</p>

<p>Sounds to me like taking the honors option at UVM would be a reasonable choice. Nothing the matter with being a top student at a solid state university. . .she should be able to get personal attention from faculty. And like the previous poster mentioned, if she isn't terribly engaged after a year or two transferring is always an option.</p>

12

<p>Gut instinct is everything.</p>

13

<p>What's up with all the parents on CC Thursday night? Just finished up taxes like me?</p>

<p>wnydancemom - UVM has a very good regional reputation. I don't know much about the Honors program but I can't imagine it's anything less than excellent. As ohio_mom said, she'll have no problem transferring out if the experience isn't what she expects.</p>

<p>Is there any chance you D is simply having a case of cold feet? If I remember right Oberlin is much pricier than UVM. Could she be worried about the cost?</p>

14

<p>Burlington is way cooler than Oberlin. Good choice and don't look back.</p>

15

<p>newhope33 - I just drove to the post office to send in my 2001 taxes (long story) just under the wire so I would get my refund. Sad, isn't it?</p>

<p>Oberlin anecdote - S said "too dark." Terse, yet insightful. We met with a 3rd year student who he had known from the theatre - she reinforced our impression, which is that most of the students feel that they have to define themselves in relationship to various social and political issues - anti-gun, pro-choice, pro animal rights, feminist, vegan, whatever. When I was driving away from Oberlin, I was feeling sorry for the kids who are, or want to be, activists, wishing they had been born in the 50s so they could have experienced the big tide of social and cultural change that galvanized the mid-to-late boomers - Instead, they have to swim against a strong current.</p>

16

<p>Frankly, I'd think your daughter was nuts if she didn't trust what her intuition is telling her. Give her a hug from all of us here at CC and move on!</p>

17

<p>It just occured to me that one of my younger D's very good friends, who she was playing leads with in this year's musical....who is I think third in the senior class....lovely lovely girl who I think YOUR D would like....she did not want to go to college far from home so only applied to Dartmouth, Middlebury and UVM (I know it sounds nuts, no matches for a student of her calibur but that is as far as she was willing to go) and she did not get into Middlebury (deferred ED) or Dartmouth and is going to UVM. This is the kind of kid I am seeing from our high school ending up in Honors College at UVM. Last year, a friend of my other D's did not get into any of her colleges (ie., Williams, Amherst, Vassar, Colgate, ConnCollege) BUT UVM and she is in Honors College there. Another wanted UVA but did not get in and is in Honors College at UVM and has the hopes of transferring eventually to UVA. There are kids like THIS in the program your D is considering. Those in your community who might think lesser of UVM or Honors College are likely quite unaware of the calibur of student that often ends up at UVM. Thought I would share this.
Susan</p>

18

<p>yulsie - 2001? At least they're this century's taxes! I did my computer science masters work while spouse and I were working full time and we had two pre-kindergarteners at home. Form 4868, every year!</p>

<p>Back on point, based on your explanation I'd be VERY reluctant to send D to Oberlin. A couple of CC Discussion pages down there is an excellent thread on "what constitutes fit." Several astute posters suggest that one excellent definition is whether the climate at the school helps the student get to where they want to be at graduation. For example my DD wanted to see another part of the U.S., and wanted to get to know people from all around the country. Tulane was perfect for this. Again, based on what you've writen, Oberlin fails that test for your D. JMO of course - other opinions may vary. (Would that be OOMV?)</p>

19

<p>I think wjb nailed it about the culture at a LAC. If it fits, great. If it doesn't, do not go. A larger school has a bit more to choose from in terms of culture, so it is probably not quite as important in terms of fit. If your D was not comfortable, she made a good visit in terms of discovery.</p>

20

<p>My son thought the same thing about Orberlin, and didn't apply. I loved the campus and thought the music program would be a great fit for him. But, even our tour guide was annoying (is there anything more annoying than rich, spoiled, hippie-wanna be?) and fit the stereotype to a tee. So, even though he only met a few other students he couldn't see himself in that environment. </p>

<p>I guess what I can't figure out, is why a college would want their student body so heavily weighted one way?</p>