Would you think my D. was nuts if she.....

Parents Forum
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<p>I don't disagree with any of the posters who've said your D should choose the school which seems to fit her best. But for the record, I want to say that from my perspective her impression of Oberlin may not have been totally accurate. I know the school well: I was an Oberlin undergraduate, and am now on the faculty. Prospective students do sometimes experience some culture shock: there are lots of outspoken students here, and those who wear their alternative perspectives on their sleeves. But the fact is that there are many, many "mainstream" students here, students probably not so different at all from your daughter. The fact that there weren't many people in the stands at a lacrosse match on a weeknight doesn't surprise me at all: most students were probably studying, or at a lecture, or one of five concerts being held that night, or any of several dozen other events going on simultaneously. </p>

<p>If your D is going to be happier at UVM, then she should certainly go there. I just hope your post doesn't discourage others from investigating Oberlin--it's an extraordinary place, and a great fit for many of the world's most talented and creative kids.</p>

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<p>I am sure Dave knows more about Oberlin than any of us. I guess Oberlin should do some self evaluation on how it presents itself to potential students. Does anyone else get that impression? There are many students there already that came away with a good feeling about the school after visiting.</p>

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<p>My daughter also was put off by Oberlin's presentation. Though our tour guide was quite mainstream, the daughter of a faculty member, she mentioned frequently that Oberlin was not for everyone. She told us that though she wasn't as extreme as many of her classmates she was comfortable with it because she grew up with it. The implication was clear that those who hadn't might not be as happy there. My d also found it pretty self righteous. When we were talking afterwards she said that the co-ops sounded alot like fraternities and soroities, you had to apply for membership=pledge, you had to be approved, they were often exclusive along political/ religious/cultural lines. She thought it was pretty funny that they were so proud of having one and not the other.</p>

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<p>Dave, thank you for your contribution! It is good to hear another opinion about Oberlin. I have met several students who are very happy at Oberlin.</p>

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<p>Just another impression of Oberlin. Having known the academic reputation for many years, I, too, was somewhat surprised (not happily) when my daughter and I visited last month. She is a junior and is interested in music. We were impressed with the conservatory but far less so with the college aesthetic. We walked around on our own and also went on the formal tour. The atmosphere struck me as indeed "dark" with very few people (saw fewer than 30 people walking on campus over 2 days) evident on the campus (it was not spring break) several students walking around barefoot without coats (it was 35 degrees), broken eggs (?) on one main sidewalk, the main display case on the central square was empty (I expected a campus map/directory perhaps) and the glass was covered with pieces of old, torn posters and tape residue. About 1 in 3 of the few students we saw were smoking (my knee-jerk reaction was - how bright can they be?). We couldn't look at residence hall rooms (only walk through the corridors) because people weren't up yet (it was 11am on a Thursday). We learned that many of the residence halls have co-ed open showers. I thought this must be wrong but have learned on cc that it is true and perceived as "no big deal" by most on campus. I've also seen many posts insisting that not everyone is a radical activist and that there are "normal" kids there too. I'm sure that's true but I do think that more mainstream kids are in the minority. I don't doubt that Oberlin has a very good intellectual atmosphere and that there are strong academics. But as a left-leaning professor myself, I can say I was surprised and disappointed with my first impression. I think Oberlin would be a great fit for many students but not a great fit for many others, including my D. </p>

<p>Having said this, my D may still apply to Oberlin for the Conservatory but even her response to my reactions about the campus was fairly telling -- she said "it didn't bother me that much" -- not must enthusiasm from a kid who has a little edge, really wanted to love it and is fairly politically active. </p>

<p>Again, these are simply observations, not an indictment of the school. There are great reasons to go to Oberlin (the research posters in the science building looked great) but its atmosphere is quite different from many of the other top LACs and I think many gifted students would find it a difficult fit just as many would find it just what they are looking for. I think a visit may be more important at Oberlin than it may be at other schools to get a good sense of potential match.</p>

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<p>I greatly appreciate the information you provided. My son is a junior and we are going to look at UVM and St. Michaels next week. Do you have any information about St. Michaels (esp academically). Thanks</p>

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<p>I suppose it's too late for her to apply to Smith? [looks at calendar. sighs.] It's got some great dance opportunities, fwiw.</p>

<p>I'd go with the UVM over Oberlin based on gut reactions and observations as described.</p>

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<p>Don't forget....you may be paying for college but your D has to go :)
Gut instinct and a "fit" is really important. UVM is truly a school "on the move" (I graduated with a MS in May'04). A lot of energy, building, and renewed "cheer for the team" spirit. Burlington is great and besides the Honors College will have the newest housing on campus. What are you waiting for, send the $$$!</p>

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<p>It's extraordinary that different people have such radically different impressions. I had lunch today with seven accepted students from Chicago and San Francisco and Arizona, here to check the school out, and their unanimous judgment was that Oberlin seems an "awesome" school, with "amazingly helpful and friendly" people. As I left my office just now, a campus band was playing on the steps of the student union, hundreds of students were sprawled on the lawn enjoying the music and the spring sunshine and each other's company, and their only anxiety seemed to be whether to go to the dance concert or the hip hop conference or the improv conference or the student-directed theater production tonight... It's hard for me to imagine a friendlier or more welcoming place.</p>

<p>And at the risk of sounding defensive, just to set a couple of matters straight:
1. It's emphatically not true that "many of the residence halls have co-ed open showers." Urban myth. Just not true! There are a very few dorms that have open showers (most with shower curtains), and if you're uncomfortable with that system, you can easily choose to live somewhere else.
2. It's also untrue that the co-ops are "often exclusive along political/ religious/cultural lines." Co-ops are very popular, and there is an application process. But NONE of them discriminates on political or religious lines. The Kosher co-op, for instance, serves Kosher food because some of our students want that option. But there are Christian and Muslim and atheist students in that co-op, and a healthy sense of pluralism prevails.</p>

<p>Of course I wish every visitor to Oberlin could come away with accurate information. But it's pretty hard to know how that could be controlled. I invite those of you whose visits left you less than enthusiastic to let the Admissions Office know--I'm sure they'd welcome the feedback.</p>

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<p>My DD was impressed by the music schoolat Oberlin but put off by the school as a whole...she's way liberal but thought it way too "PC" and the students very affected and time warpish. Now 4 years later (about to graduate from a large state U Honors College) she says.."you know, I'm kinda glad Oberlin waitlisted me..I probably wouldn't be shaving my legs and I probably would be dating women if I had gone there" LOL..just her perception of the college social scene .
I know two girls from DS's HS going off to UVM in the fall,both Honor;s College.They LOVED their visits and yes, Burlington is a way cool town.Seems like a nice sized school in a good locale with good opportunities.</p>

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<p>WNyDance mom...
Tonight I was sitting next to the President of UVM of all things, never knowing this would happen when I read your thread previously, lol. We went to Burlington to see the Audra MacDonald concert (was at the same theater where my D was rehearsing a musical when you were visiting Burlington last fall). Anyway, prior to the concert, there was a pre-show type event in the adjoining smaller theater space at this same center for the performing arts. This was for invited guests. It is not that we were invited but we were at this pre-concert event cause my D's voice teacher had been asked to do a presentation...he spoke a bit about voice, Audra MacDonald, Broadway, etc. and then he had two students of his sing to demonstrate two voice techniques. The other student (who is heading to Skidmore this fall) sang soprano showing head voice and my D was the other singer, who sang a belt style song. It turned out that the invited audience to this part were made up, I think, of benefactors to the arts and UVM alumni and things like that. So, it started with the President of UVM who was sitting by me, speaking about what's new at UVM, things like that. By the way, I liked how he presented. One thing he mentioned was the beginnings this year of the Honors College! Also they are about to break ground on a new student center. He spoke about the record number of applicants this year to UVM, the number who have already sent in their deposits (which was far beyond the number who did so by this date last year), and many other initiatives and excitement as he is a newer president who I think is trying to elevate the level of excellence at the university. I thought of you during this part cause who knew I would be listening to this when I spoke to you last? LOL. </p>

<p>By the way, nothing to do with UVM, but for me, I felt my D had a little "triumph" to be performing in front of this audience just one month after her acccident and Intensive care and injuries. As she was introduced, he started saying, "she won the state award for...." and I was thinking, hmm, he is gonna mention her awards? He did not do that for the other girl who sang first, but then he went on "she won the state award for rolling over her parents' car many times on the interstate" and how she was alive and here on that stage. ;-) </p>

<p>By the way, The Dad, the OP's D is not her dancing D. Her dancing D is a BFA dance major at UM. </p>

<p>So, obviously the Honors College is a new pride and joy of the President of UVM. Thought you'd wanna know the importance they are placing on this initiative. </p>

<p>To the poster who asked about St. Mike's....it has a very fine reputation in this neck of the woods, in terms of academics. I don't know the details. I know that a girl from our school, very top student with excellent ECs as well, ended up there, after not getting into Colby. Recently, on a plane ride to VT, I sat with a bunch of St.Mike's students who were returning from their entire winter break in India, doing some sort of community service experience there. They seemed like neat kids. My only other experience at St. Michael's was when my child was 10 years old, the director of the theater department at that college had seen my child in a production in that city (we don't live there, however) and called to cast her in their college musical as it needed one child role. This was a phenomenal experience for my child at the time because the college students at St. Michael's, took her under their wing and treated her as part of the "team". Once when they had an all day rehearsal, they let her hang with them on breaks at their dorms and acted like they wanted to do this. In fact, some of them invited her to be part of their band act at a talent night on campus and she had a ball. They even let her in on their cast parties (though I was present). Really great kids. It is funny cause now, five years later, my D was in a musical in that city and lo and behold, one of the cast members who has since graduated St. Michael's was in her cast back when at the college and no longer recognized my D who was all "grown up" and they enjoyed being together again years later. If these kids are the norm at St. Mike's, they are a special lot. I also think there is an international presence at St. Mike's. Further, it is located right on the outskirts of Burlington and it is such a fun college town. </p>

<p>Oh, and WNYMom, I meant to add.....when we got out of the car upon arriving in Burlington late in the day, and it was sunny and gorgeous out and we were at the end of Church Street, my D blurted out, "if I did not live in VT, this would be the neatest place to go to college!" and she does not know about your D but I smiled and reminded myself to tell you to tell YOUR D that unsolicited comment!
Susan</p>

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<p>Let your daughter go with her instincts. We visited Oberlin with our son. He loved the visit as did I. Mom on the other hand was literally in tears with the thought that he might be attending Oberlin. It is a very unique environment very unsuitable for some students.</p>

<p>Re your comment on the lax game I need to take issue with. It is not at all unusual that such games have few students rooting the team on to victory. I would suggest that she discount this. I suspect that a comparable %age of the UVa student body attends such sporting events. However she will be able to be among the student body at f'ball and b'ball games which will be a lot of fun for her and which Oberlin will not be able to duplicate.</p>

<p>The other unmentioned observations may very well be particular to Oberlin and you need to trust her on that.</p>

<p>While Oberlin is very liberal I do think that there is space for more typically main stream students. Neocon leaners....eh maybe not!Our son is uberliberal however the finaid issues did not work out for us.</p>

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<p>Thanks Susan for the feedback about St. Michael's. I have been doing a lot of research and it seems like a great place for my son. However, I have received a lot of negative comments from people as weel (it's a party school, not high enough level for him, he should shoot higher). We will be going up there to look at it, as well as UVM this week, so I have really been interested in this discussion. Thanks</p>

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<p>We just visited Middlebury and I stayed in Burlington. My D loved the academics of Middlebury, but loved Burlington! )And she hates sports)At UVM you have the best of both worlds with the honors program. BTW, I drove back on a Friday night, and Church street was really hopping! (The restaurants and mall area) with UVM students everywhere, having a good, not raucous, not drinking time. Even at my age, I wanted to get out of the car and join them and appreciated how well-behaved they were. I loved Church street - lots of wonderful shopping, eating at the Culinary Institute, etc. Families were there, too. There were signs everywhere for theater productions, symphone concerts, etc. Birlington, for a small city, has a lot going for it!</p>

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<p>Evita, I wish I knew you were coming, I would have met ya if I could have. I'm not that far from Middlebury, nor Burlington. Middlebury is a GREAT school. If your child liked the setting/atmosphere, there still is access to Burlington, but it is not like a school that has all that in walking distance but still I think Middlebury kids do go there. </p>

<p>Palermo, I have never heard reference to St. Michael's as being a party school, that 's funny. I have heard that term used with reference to UVM but not as much in recent years. They have tried to do things to counter that old label. I think St. Michael's is well regarded for above average students who like a small school and what they offer there. It is smaller than UVM and private and so a different "feel". I think UVM, however, does not feel like many other state universities because it is not all that big. </p>

<p>I mention all this, not to say these are better in any way shape or form from Oberlin because actually Oberlin is definitely a well regarded selective college and a friend of my D's goes there and likes it. But I wanted to make sure the OP knew stuff about these other choices she has. Most importantly, no matter the "name" of the school, it is going to matter far more if the child feels as if she fits into the atmosphere/environment of that school. A kid who gets a gut feeling that is not one of excitement to go there, might really think twice about attending. I don't know enough about Oberlin but from a few things mentioned here as to a general "type" of kid who is attracted to the school, I would say having met the OP's daughter, she is more mainstream than the descriptions being given here of the typical student and/or climate and I can see why she might have felt as she did on her overnight and that is why such overnights are so critical when making these final choices. No matter how fantastic a school is, it just not be the environment that fits what you like. That seems the issue here, far more than the name of the school. The "where are you going to college?" discussions are big right now in her high school as it is April but none of this is going to be the topic du jour come next year. So, that is something to also think about.
Susan</p>

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<p>One more thought about Oberlin:
It seemed the only school we looked at where there was no recent investment in upgrading student housing. Anyone else feel this way?
Must say though for a school its size there was alot of cultural activity going on (we were there a total of three times) and its art museum is wonderful.</p>

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<p>Dave from Oberlin:
Perhaps it would help if I clarified my feelings after our tour/interview. We were there in the summer. I thought the campus was truly lovely. The gardens were the best I had seen. The main problem we had was our tour guide. She spoke non-stop about herself. She mentioned at least three times that she had gone to a boarding school, ten times that she was a vegetarian (and gave my son the impression nearly every kid there was - even though I know this can't possibly be true), a hundred times that she had just returned from some exotic trip to somewhere, a thousand times how busy she was with the food co-op, etc. I'm sure you get my drift. None of this appealed to my sort of "regular" kid who just loves trumpet! </p>

<p>Kids (and parents!) get their impression from the tour guides, for better or worse. Perhaps just a little re-training would help. We wanted to know more about the school. Or maybe, quite honestly, we wanted to see a more balanced picture. One of the reasons we looked at Oberlin was because various student reviews do, in fact, give a picture of a VERY happy student body. So, somehow, maybe that should be more clearly presented - without being phony though! (P.S. NO parent wants to think that their kid will be sharing a coed bathroom for that kind of money.)</p>

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<p>Thanks again for the positive feedback. We are in Southern New England so there are only a few people down here that are familiar with the school. I greatly appreciate hearing some positives because it seems like a great environment for a quiet individual like my son.</p>

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<p>OT from Oberlin per se, but the random fluke factor on college applications of tour guides and their effect on visiting students seems to be fairly high. I would think the colleges would take more care about who was representing them, like having another employee "ghost" along on a tour now and then, but it just seems like they throw bodies out there willy-nilly.</p>

<p>D detested the student info session person for Yale, who was smug & self-satisifed...a cliche of the elitist prep school riff. The person for NYU was woefully ignorant and couldn't answer many questions. Her tour guides for Smith were great...but I've heard of a couple that have sent visitors heading right back to the Interstate.</p>

<p>Considering how Impressionistic the process is....</p>

<p>Well, it probably still all works out. Mostly. In the long run.</p>

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<p>We visited Oberlin with D on a cold spring break 2 years ago. She was interested in both the conservatory and the college (dual degree). We were all impressed by Oberlin and had a great tour guide. Everyone was welcoming. Oberlin IS a liberal school and is not for everybody. D's criticism of Oberlin was that it was in the middle of a corn field. She chose Rice for various reasons, but has friends at Oberlin who are very happy. Oberlin has a very prominent Athletic Director now (well known in the sports world) which might serve to "normalize" college life a little bit.</p>