wouldn't it be interesting if colleges didn't look at race?

Applying to College
21

<p>Oh, okay. I was just feeling Black people ( that talk about it), are kind of rare around here, around "upper tier" schools, around LAC's, around universities, and around some towns in general, so if your running into a lot of them, point me in that direction. It can be kind of lonely if you need that kind of thing.</p>

<p>I have to edit to add that I looked at the first link, that I am a parent, not a student. I have to say it's just as depressing to think how many students might take these chance threads so seriously.</p>

22

<p>Affirmative action is absolute garbage.</p>

23

<p>Too many people mix up what affirmative action is supposed to do and what it actually does do. I agree only with the former. Fabrizio still comes here occasionally to argue in those threads designed to provoke people into arguing with titles like "Don't Say Diversity Doesn't Matter" or "Black People Suck". I used to post heavily in the affirmative action related threads but now they're getting repetitive.</p>

24

<p>
[quote]
But by allowing students in who wouldn't ordinarily be, you have to by definition keep other students out to keep room for them.

[/quote]

Not exactly. </p>

<p>Say that you want to choose a flavor of ice cream. You really like chocolate, vanilla, and banana (you see where this is going), but you can only have one. How do you choose? Well, say you've already had two vanilla milkshakes today. Would you have another, or choose a different flavor? </p>

<p>The thing is, elite colleges have an abundance of qualified applicants. MIT says that over 70% of its applicant pool is academically qualified. In other words, that's 8710 applicants competing for only 1533 spots. When you have to reject 5 applicants for every applicant you admit, you need SOME method to sort through them. Affirmative action is a two-for-one deal for most colleges; they increase diversity and cut applicants at the same time.</p>

<p>Affirmative action doesn't work the same everywhere, and different groups receive benefits at different colleges. As one example, Asians are in high demand at many, many LACs, most of whom have a student body that's 90+% white. In contrast, HYPSM have plenty of Asian applicants and can have the pick of the litter.</p>

25

<p>
[quote]
Not exactly.</p>

<p>Say that you want to choose a flavor of ice cream. You really like chocolate, vanilla, and banana (you see where this is going), but you can only have one. How do you choose? Well, say you've already had two vanilla milkshakes today. Would you have another, or choose a different flavor?</p>

<p>The thing is, elite colleges have an abundance of qualified applicants. MIT says that over 70% of its applicant pool is academically qualified. In other words, that's 8710 applicants competing for only 1533 spots. When you have to reject 5 applicants for every applicant you admit, you need SOME method to sort through them. Affirmative action is a two-for-one deal for most colleges; they increase diversity and cut applicants at the same time.</p>

<p>Affirmative action doesn't work the same everywhere, and different groups receive benefits at different colleges. As one example, Asians are in high demand at many, many LACs, most of whom have a student body that's 90+% white. In contrast, HYPSM have plenty of Asian applicants and can have the pick of the litter.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I congratulate you on having one of the best analogies I have yet seen for what affirmative action is.</p>

<p>However, there are some problems with the whole milkshake thing. The biggest problem is that, when applied to college admissions, that would mean that all white candidates are the same/all black candidates are the same etc. This is simply not the case. A wealth of diversity can be found amongst people with the same skin color, and people of different skin colors can be almost identical.</p>

<p>Saying someone will provide more to your community because they are black is, in my opinion, a racist statement. When the system gets to the point that you have a strong advantage just because you are black (or any other race), there's a problem.</p>

<p>Maybe some of my feelings are personally driven, I'll admit that. I really want to go to Harvard or Stanford, and hate being half asian because i have practically no chance of getting in with my stats and ECs. If I had those same stats and ECs but I was black, my chances would be at least doubled, I guarantee you that.</p>

26

<p>
[quote]
As one example, Asians are in high demand at many, many LACs, most of whom have a student body that's 90+% white.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm assuming that none of the top LACs apply to this statement.</p>

27

<p>"Too many people mix up what affirmative action is supposed to do and what it actually does do."</p>

<p>Many people also forget affirmative action's original purpose, which is to push employers, government institutions, and academic institutions to reconcile the racial/ethnic make-up of its students so that 1.) minority candidates from backgrounds with considerably less education can compete with those who do, and that 2.) the racial/ethnic make-up of those employed or enrolled at colleges and universities more closely reflects the national population. You can thank Lyndon B. Johnson and Executive Order 11246 for that. </p>

<p>It is still the case that Whites, South and East Asians have a much greater access to better education than African Americans and Latinos. Even those who argue for the sake of merit-based admissions, a significant part of academic merit is standardized test scores, which in general White and Asian candidates have much more resources for preparation than other racial/ethnic groups.</p>

<p>In my opinion the most culpable parties here are not universities, but rather many, many public school districts, primarily via the misuse of federal funds allocated to education. It is apparent to me that a great deal of school districts across this nation are still not giving their students the preparation they need for college admissions.</p>

28

<p>
[QUOTE]
It is still the case that Whites, South and East Asians have a much greater access to better education than African Americans and Latinos. Even those who argue for the sake of merit-based admissions, a significant part of academic merit is standardized test scores, which in general White and Asian candidates have much more resources for preparation than other racial/ethnic groups.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Correction: Whites, South and East Asians on average have greater access to better education than African Americans and Latinos.</p>

<p>There are scores of white and asian candidates who attend incredibly poor schools and plenty of Blacks and Latinos who attend rich private schools. Same argument goes for candidates who have more resources for preparation.</p>

<p>Affirmative Action buys into stereotypes which are often far from the truth, and would in my opinion do much better if it discriminated socioeconomically and not racially.</p>

<p>As for gender based Affirmative Action (which i know is much rarer at the college level)...well...i'm lost on that issue. Males and females should be born in the same families with the same socioeconomic circumstances. Just because there are more females in college doesn't mean that males need some sort of boost.</p>

29

<p>i think this argument comes down to where "chances and opportunities" begin. Do people have equal opportunities when they are in equal high school situations, or in equal college situations? Does sending a student to Harvard give him more opportunities to be a better applicant for a job? If so, wouldn't having equal opportunities mean that everyone has equal access to college education?</p>

<p>The major conflict i see is people looking at college education as "the result" as opposed to the "opportunity". As the reward instead of a stepping stone to the reward. If all races are to have equal opportunities in society, wouldn't that start with equal "training" for jobs and society?</p>

<p>Just some new thoughts, i've been trying to expand my perspective.</p>

<p>And that members of a different race can't offer you a new perspective is belittling and ignorant. True TONS of diversity can be found in the pool of solely white students, but doesn't that already take care of itself? In order to experience the influence of a new culture it certainly has to be large enough to make an impact. </p>

<p>and i get the feeling that many of you would have opposed integration as pointless. But doesn't integrating people in schools, the place where education and life training occur, help them to have equal opportunities in the future?</p>

<p>I don't believe in AA when it comes to getting a job, but only if AA in school admissions remains. To me, if everyone has an equal opportunity at the training, considering they work hard and are qualified, then everybody has an equal opportunity to get a job.</p>

30

<p>" I really want to go to Harvard or Stanford, and hate being half asian because i have practically no chance of getting in with my stats and ECs."</p>

<p>That just blows my mind. You hate being Asian because it interferes with getting into some school? I'm sure you don't mean that. I could think of some reasons some people might hate being black, but most don't, and it's not because of some points from an admission committee.</p>

31

<p>It's quite simple really. Race-based Affirmative Action is foolish, ineffective, and has been since its inception. Instead, effective Affirmative Action would be based on economic, or need-based criteria. Affirmative Action is racism at its worst.</p>

32

<p>Colleges already take economic and need-based criteria into consideration.</p>

<p>At the same time, race doesn't necessarily matter as much as you make it out to be, unless you're native american.</p>

<p>Otherwise, remember that a college is a corporation. They want people to attend their school. Diversity is a buzzword for a reason -if you had the chance to meet lots of interesting people over a place where everyone was the same, wouldn't you take it?</p>

<p>If I had the chance to learn from another culture and meet new people, I'd say that's worth more than someone who had a .1 higher GPA.</p>

<p>And if you're still asian or caucasian, which would include myself, and can prove that you're still different and have something to add, then you'll get in.</p>

<p>Almost no college uses a point scale where being african or native american adds "five points" towards getting accepted. They accept you based on what you can bring.</p>

33

<p>actually, no college is legally allowed to use the point system anymore (gratz v bollinger if i recall), although it was popular once. it wasn't so much that they decided 'let's not do this', it was 'oh damn court mandate says I can't do this anymore'.</p>

34

<p>I was using points figuretively (?sp).</p>

35

<p>If you are not interested in attending a university with a racially diverse student body, then that university is not interested in having you for a student.</p>

36

<p>
[quote]
Affirmative Action is racism at its worst.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Racism at its worst would be slavery... But no need to bring up that little insignificant period in time.</p>

37

<p>Slavery and genocide both trump any malicious effect from affirmative action, thank you Armando. </p>

<p>Getting back, people on CC definitely don't give colleges and universities credit for the great investment they make to create socio-economic diversity. Tuition costs are not going to come down, but financial assistance has definitely increased. This must mean that colleges want candidates from lower-income families to attend, or why increase financial aid funding at all?</p>

38

<p>"It's depressing that in this day and age, a thing as small as the color of your skin makes such a large difference in your chances of being accepted to your dream college."</p>

<p>"A thing as small?" I am not what anyone would call a liberal, but I think that people who say something like that should have the experience of being black for a month in America.</p>

39

<p>^^ I agree, and not just being black either, bi- and multi-racial people also have significant challenges.</p>

40

<p>EMM1:</p>

<p>My best friend is black, and let me tell you, he has it a lot better than I do. His father holds a high level position within yahoo, he has gone to private school throughout his life, and has been racially profiled no more than I have been (I am multiracial: 1/2 white 1/2 asian). Being black isn't nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be.</p>

<p>So yes, I'd call it "a thing as small as the color of your skin"</p>