<p>Of course AA is unfair to individuals. But it isn't designed to promote fairness to individuals. It is designed to pursue more general goals, and one is free to agree with those or to disagree. AA is unfair the same way food stamps are unfair: it gives a benefit to somebody who hasn't "earned" it, because policymakers think it creates an overall good to do so. Do you think it's "unfair" for a store to reserve parking spaces for the handicapped? Of course, that policy discriminates against the non-handicapped, but most of us probably agree with the policy considerations behind it.</p>
<p>I am very flattered that several users have asked for my opinion. Thank you!</p>
<p>At heart, all affirmative action discussions center around one values-based question. Are some individuals entitled to preferential treatment by virtue of their membership in a designated group?</p>
<p>I believe the answer is no. In the case of university admissions, I feel that no one is entitled to preferential treatment based on factors that are irrelevant to participation in university programs. Race, gender, religion, nationality, ethnicity none of these factors has anything to do with studying, making new friends, attending events, and so forth. Consequently, I believe that there is no need to consider these factors in the admissions process.</p>
<p>The issue is never about diversity or wanting to help minorities. The extreme left has so bastardized the word diversity that now it is a mere euphemism for protected class only. John Rosenberg has documented that at the University of Missouri Kansas City, a computer science professor from Eritrea is not considered diverse. Moreover, with the end of racism as a socially acceptable ideology (i.e. being openly racist), only a minority of Americans are staunchly opposed to efforts that help minorities without resorting to preferential treatment.</p>
<p>Basically, if you feel that without regard means dont consider, then youll likely be against modern affirmative action. If you feel that without regard means do consider, then youll likely be for modern affirmative action.</p>
<p>There can be ONLY ONE HIGHLANDER!</p>
<p>Not the car, either.</p>
<p>that was an incredibly biased statement fabrizio, i'm disappointed, you're usually much better than that.</p>
<p>I think the values argument ultimately comes down to: 1. Is it important everybody, including groups systematically discriminated against in society, have an equal opportunity to succeed, and 2. Is college education an opportunity, or a reward like a job. </p>
<p>I guess there is also a 3. are racial, cultural, ethnic, and gender diversity important in a college environment. </p>
<p>Those who are pro AA say: yes it is important, college is an opportunity, and RCEG diversity is important</p>
<p>Those who are against say: no, but some say yes, but those who say yes see college as a reward as opposed to part of those opportunities, and they almost universally say no, those types of diversity are not important.</p>
<p>I think that part of making people more aware of the value of racial and cultural diversity is exposing them to those types of environments. A majority of those who believe it is not important do not come from environments where there is much racial or cultural interaction at all (which is mainly because outside of a college campus those situations are rare)</p>
<p>Who here thinks race should be the most important factor in admissions?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Moreover, with the end of racism as a socially acceptable ideology (i.e. being openly racist), only a minority of Americans are staunchly opposed to efforts that help minorities without resorting to preferential treatment.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You're right. The majority of Americans don't oppose efforts to help minorities as long as they don't entail preferential treatment.</p>
<p>Here's a question: How can you help a select group of people without resorting to preferential treatment?</p>
<p>Answer: You can't.</p>
<p>Therefore, the majority of Americans oppose efforts to help minorities.</p>
<p>First of all, the majority of Americans really don't feel strongly either way about the issue. A main reason why AA tends to get shot down at state votes is because the majority of people who would take the time to vote on the issue are those adamantly opposed to it.</p>
<p>& you can select a group of people however you'd like, but that doesn't mean it was the best group of people to choose.</p>
<p>^^and i hope that nobody thinks race should be the most important factor in admissions.</p>
<p>Tyler,</p>
<p>Based on my experience, supporters and opponents of positive discrimination have different conceptions of equal opportunity. Since it is the supporters who frequently employ terms like “over-represented,” “under-represented,” “racial stratification,” and other euphemisms for quotas, what they define as equal opportunity is actually equal result. (They once used “racial balance,” but then Chief Justice John Roberts destroyed that phrase with his opinion in Parents Involved.)</p>
<p>Equal opportunity means everyone has a chance to compete. There is no predetermined guarantee of representation. Such guarantees are quotas, which are patently un-Constitutional.</p>
<p>I view a college education as an opportunity. I don’t see how this is at the heart of the affirmative action discussion.</p>
<p>I don’t believe that your number three is necessary. It’s not a contentious point at all. Drs. Bowen and Bok, for example, state that most students “believe that going to college with a diverse body of fellow students made a valuable contribution to their education and personal development.”</p>
<p>I support diversity from a liberal point of view. That is, I support the power and uniqueness of the individual. I am not interested in the collectivist perspective, which favors group membership and identity politics. I am thus opposed to the “diversity" where some people are considered diverse and others aren’t. That is an utter corruption.</p>
<p>michiganman,</p>
<p>Really? That’s quite interesting. Whatever happened to race-blind outreach? Did it die with BAMN in Michigan last November?</p>
<p>Tyler09:
I go to a school that is about 40% Black, 20% white, 25% asian, and 15% hispanic.</p>
<p>It is a very racially diverse community and I interact with all types of people. Everyone is unique and has something special to add to the community.</p>
<p>This is precisely what has made me realize that racial diversity IS NOT IMPORTANT.</p>
<p>Diversity has absolutely nothing to do with race. Each individual has their own background, their own stories, and their own outlook REGARDLESS of their race. I can go to the south asian student union (or any other racial club) and find as diverse an environment as any. Everyone is unique, everyone has something to add to the community.</p>
<p>Wasn't it Martin Luther King himself who said we shouldn't judge people by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character? Affirmative action boils diversity down to skin color. What does skin color have to do with diversity? Nothing!</p>
<p>By the way, the "groups systematically discriminated against in society should be given an advantage" doesn't make sense. It isn't skin color that's holding people back, it's socioeconomic status.</p>
<p>Race nowadays is being treated the same way religion was in the past. Way back when Europeans first colonized america, it wasn't race that caused wars, it was religion. You could be killed for being a Catholic in the wrong place. People developed all sorts of stereotypes about Calvanists, Catholics, Lutherans, etc.</p>
<p>And you know, that all disappeared. Nobody cares if less Catholics are in a student body than Jews, or if a college has more Protestants than atheists. Even though religion has a much vaster impact on a person's personality than skin color does, we don't care about it when it comes to diversity. Huh, if this was really about diversity, why not try to have a religiously diverse student body as well?</p>
<p>Because of a little concept called "Separation of church and state". Nobody cares about religion. People rarely hold stereotypes concerning religion, and it's more politically correct to make a religious joke than a racial one.</p>
<p>Maybe if our government stopped actively singling out race, we might end up with a similar conclusion right?</p>
<p>JP_Omnipotence, are you in, or have you ever been to, college?</p>
<p>kk19131:
No, I am a senior in high school applying to college. I don't see how it's relevant to the matter at hand. I am just stating my opinion and showing evidence for why I have this opinion. I have a strong opinion concerning this matter but I am very open to other ideas. (at least I'd like to think so).</p>
<p>I don't believe my high school age makes my opinion worth any less, but if you really believe it does, you are free to explain.</p>
<p>"The majority of Americans don't oppose efforts to help minorities as long as they don't entail preferential treatment."</p>
<p>I think a more accurate statement would be, "The majority of Americans don't oppose efforts to help minorities as long as they don't entail preferential treatment that significantly impacts themselves." Thus, most Americans will support paying a little more in taxes, or preferential treatment that affects somebody else, or only a few people. To give an example, I was reading that that blind people get preferential treatment in running cafeterias in federal buildings. I am not aware of any groundswell of opposition to this particular form of blatant preferential treatment. Why? Because it doesn't have a very broad effect.</p>
<p>"I don't believe my high school age makes my opinion worth any less, but if you really believe it does, you are free to explain."</p>
<p>-Your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's. However, when you say things like:</p>
<p>"Diversity has absolutely nothing to do with race."</p>
<p>"Even though religion has a much vaster impact on a person's personality than skin color does, we don't care about it when it comes to diversity."</p>
<p>"Because of a little concept called "Separation of church and state". Nobody cares about religion."</p>
<p>"People rarely hold stereotypes concerning religion"</p>
<p>-When you say things like this, I have to believe that your opinion is grounded in little else than your own belief and is highly suspect. That is, I find it hard to understand how you can make such sweeping claims with seemingly no justification for said claims. The only reason I asked about your attending college is that I think that your taking some sociology, anthropology, political science, history, and public policy classes would suit you well.</p>
<p>agreed.</p>
<p>and i want it to be known that i am opposed to making diversity solely about race, but support racial diversity being included in diversity. Great colleges also take into account diversity of backgrounds and ideas, but those happen whether you consider race or not. </p>
<p>I also agree with hunt that people only oppose preferential treatment when it has a great effect on them. If the majority didnt have the false idea that in college admissions the adcom takes two applicants and says "only one of you can get offered admissions" as opposed to the reality where each applicant is individually compared to the entire class, then AA would be a complete nonissue, there wouldnt be enough people with any opinion on it.</p>
<p>and JP i just want to ask</p>
<p>So you don't think that you have gained anything from attending a school as racially diverse as yours that somebody from a virtually uniracial suburban school may not have gotten?</p>
<p>If so then you have truly wasted the opportunities around you.</p>
<p>Tyler, </p>
<p>Just out of curiosity: can you articulate exactly what YOU have gained from your interactions with people of different ethnicities? Something that you could not possibly have gained from interacting with uniracial people of diverse interests/backgrounds?</p>
<p>Well, i can sure try.</p>
<p>I've gained a better understanding of how race impacts the lives of those different from myself, the different ways of interacting on a close friendship level, and on a romantic level.</p>
<p>From being exposed to the diversity within a large group of people of a different background it has helped me understand how wrong stereotypes are. I've also witnessed how subtle racism trickles into the actions, words, and thoughts of people without them even knowing, and interacting with a diverse group has allowed me to see a different perspective on that.</p>
<p>Through being in a racially diverse area i feel better prepared for the racially diverse world and better equipped to combat the ways racism effects peoples daily lives.</p>
<p>Tyler,</p>
<p>Do you believe that you will not receive these benefits if schools follow race-blind admissions policies?</p>
<p>When you're applying to a college, it's easy to resent any policy that seems to lower your chances of admission. I remember experiencing my own resentments back in the day.</p>
<p>But my own life has been enriched immeasurably by the ethnic and social diversity I encountered in college. Through my interactions with one classmate, I developed a serious interest in Chinese language and culture, and ended up spending a year in Taiwan after college. Since that time, I've had an abiding professional interest in Asia. </p>
<p>But the most profound benefit I personally experienced from admissions policies that promoted diversity has to be my marriage to an African-American classmate of mine from law school. My children owe their lives to these policies, in a sense.</p>
<p>So that's on the plus side of the ledger. If affirmative action played any role in Princeton or Yale's rejection of my undergraduate applications, or in Harvard's rejection of my law school application, so be it. I've come out way ahead.</p>
<p>By the way, it's amusing to me when people credit the "extreme left" with affirmative action. I'm old enough to remember that affirmative action, like the Environmental Protection Agency, were products of the Nixon administration.</p>