<p>I skimmed the Wissner-Gross book at Borders but didn't buy it. I'd heard it was really over-the-top and was curious. One thing I gleaned from it that I think I'm using to help my second child is her discussion of competitive high schools where teachers are penalized for giving out a lot of A's. When just about every single kid in the school is intelligent and ambitious this can be pretty tough. So some teachers unconsciously tend to assess which students are "nice" or "quiet" and just generally most likely to take an A- or B+ without making trouble. And which kids have low-profile non-interventionist parents (like me) who won't march in and ask for an explanation. I really think this has been going on a bit with my second child who is physically very slight and extremely sweet and works very hard and does fantastic work but will get the occasional A- or B+ for no apparent reason. I shared this with her and it was a true epiphany for her (that's the word she used.) I've left it to her to act upon the idea herself. I could never follow through with the Wissner-Gross advice to parents on this problem, involving calling for a conference with the teacher. I'm too big a weenie. But I do think Wissner-Gross is pretty insightful on this issue.</p>
<p>As for high school friends -- I think a lot of parents make far too much of this issue. High school is so brief and comes so early in life that I really don't think of it as the breeding ground for lifelong friendships. I have seen some families get so caught up in the social end of high school that their kids have obviously not come away with what they needed to get into good schools. That seems pretty short-sighted. My siblings were extremely popular in high school, won lots of elections, homecoming courts - beloved by the other students and faculty alike. Both my siblings had a terrible time moving on to college. Once my older sister told me she regarded high school as the best time of her life. I, the high school dork with only a few other mis-fit dorks for friends, found that statement terribly sad. I think some parents who also loved high school try to re-live their own high school experience through their kids. So I didn't read the section where Wissner-Gross gives her take on high school friendships, but I just might agree with parts of what she says.</p>
<p>mammall-I have exactly that; teachers adore my B-plus daughter because she and I never ever complain about her grades! So Wissner-Gross thinks I should be charging into the classroom to have her average recalculated? </p>
<p>How does W-G feel that plays into teacher recs? Do the sweet kids or the pushy kids do better?</p>
<p>Well, I'm 49 and am very much looking forward to the Christmas party this Saturday where four of my closest high school friends and their families will gather & have a great time. We've never missed a party in over 30 years. I also see high school friends throughout the year as they come in to town on business or to visit their own families. There is a HUGE difference between the "glory days" mentality of high school as life's pinnacle, and treasuring old, dear friendships, regardless of the different paths friends may have taken.</p>
<p>W-G's book is a guide to creating phoney resumes, grasping & self-absorbed kids. I am not in the least surprised that friends are disposable in her world. Perhaps she should remember that the same people you meet on the way up, you will meet on the way back down.</p>
<p>Muffy, you're dealing with human beings who, hopefully, have a passion for working with teenagers. My gut says when obnoxious parents ride them about a couple of points, it would HAVE to be reflective in their letters of recommendation. The challenge for the conscientious teacher would be to not hold it against a kid because they have pushy parents. OTOH, my kids would have me shot me on the spot if I tried to fight their grade battles for them! Isn't it interesting why some welcome that behavior from their parents and others rebel at the mere proposal of parental intervention??</p>
<p>Your comment in post #9 made me smile as I am continually intrigued by that..... How do the kids stand by and allow their parents to tell them what to do at every turn, fight battles for them and even dictate the college admissions process for them? There are certainly parents who map everything out for their kids and I might be persuaded to do the same thing, but for some strange reason, MY kids have minds of their own and seem to follow their own decision-making process rather than mine! Go figure! I, too, am still working on the pile of laundry rising up from the middle of the floor! </p>
<p>Makes me wonder how many of the 'successful' people out there (bear in mind we all have differing opinions of success) were led around by the nose by pushy parents who made decisions for them all along the way. AND what happens to those kids when mommy can no longer run the show?!!</p>
<p>Williams' entry system is unique. 20 kids are paired with JA's. They are somewhat like RA's, but not really. They don't get paired; they volunteer to live with first years strictly for the fun of it. My S playfully calls them his Mom and Dad and their closest friend is Uncle -------. There is a budget created by Williams for snack night, movies together, going out to eat. During frosh parents' weekend there's an entry get together. The JA's monitor the kids' partying, take them shopping, etc. etc.</p>
<p>I think the entries give kids the feeling of being in a non-exclusive frat, or something like that. The other kids in the entry are more than hall mates from what I've seen at many other colleges. And it fosters a sense of belonging.</p>
<p>That said, S has said that they have one of the most cohesive entries, but he could not wait to get back to school for winter study even though it was ony 10 degrees.</p>
<p>
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My siblings were extremely popular in high school, won lots of elections, homecoming courts - beloved by the other students and faculty alike. Both my siblings had a terrible time moving on to college.
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<p>One does not follow from the other. My son had, and still has, more friends than anyone I ever knew--and they've all been here almost non-stop over break--but he has had absolutely no trouble moving on to college. He is sort of reproducing the experience, from what I gather. And, as you know, he had no trouble "getting what he needed to get into good schools". In fact, his willingness to work in groups, help other kids and teachers, and be an active part of the school community was probably a large part of his success in getting a scholarship in a field that values teamwork.</p>
<p>
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W-G's book is a guide to creating phoney resumes, grasping & self-absorbed kids.
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<p>Well, that is my take on it, but I admit my "knowledge" of the book is limited to the book review.</p>
<p>Re-reading some of these posts, I think we might include the idea of balance. For a high schooler it is prudent to remember college admissions and perhaps push oneself a bit in terms of EC's and to keep a very prudent eye on academics and to sometimes relax and live in the moment, enjoying friends and building relationships with many kinds of people, even those who won't be useful to the college process.</p>
<p>An eye toward academics would certainly include a focus on performance in classes. That might SOMETIMES include contesting a grade if the grade was really unfair. (I wouldn't necessarily recommend; high school teachers don't usually take well to this.)</p>
<p>An eye toward EC's might include pushing oneself for a leadership post one mightn't have gone after, but this is a good experience and character building in any case. However, the student ideally would only pursue activities of true interest that also bring enjoyment.</p>
<p>Friends should be those people who enhance real emotional growth and who share interests. They should not be chosen because they will stimulate achievement. Human contact is a place for authenticity, and occasionally, some vulnerability. </p>
<p>We really don't need an either/or scenario.</p>
<p>Summer programs that develop unique interests are wonderful and can yield great comrades. And home friendships can still be nurtured.</p>
<p>I haven't read the books in question. I would say tips are okay. Encouraging kids to abandon their authentic selves to create a false facade is not okay and will backfire somehow.</p>
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Each summer -- working in a local research lab, attending a math camp or trying to write the great American novel -- should take a would-be college applicant one step closer to his dream. But aren't summers supposed to be, well, fun? Ms. Wissner-Gross has two bits of advice: "Contrary to pop psychology, down time need not be unstructured to be relaxing and to help a student decompress." And "children who insist on hanging out with already known friends during the summer often miss out on wonderful opportunities." Yes, buddies can be an obstacle if you care about getting into college.
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<p>It strikes me that, had my S not attended his summer camp, he might have had little luck hanging out with his high-school friends. They were either attending camps of various sorts (not all academic or designed to polish the r</p>
<p>What do people really think about the issue of haphazard grading?</p>
<p>As an example right from her book, D has a teacher who won't give an A+ on principal because nobody is perfect. She always finds something to criticize in an otherwise perfect assignment even if it isn't in the rubric just to make sure it's not in A+ range. Other teachers who teach the same subject have no such reservations, so theoretically some other kid could get an A+ and ultimately get a higher GPA. Is it worth alienating the entire school administration and her GC to go over the teacher's head and address the problem as W-G suggests, or is it better to treat the grades as an approximation and hope that on average she'll get an average number of easy/hard or generous/unreasonable teachers? </p>
<p>I know she currently has an A+ from a teacher who is so slow and behind where the curriculum should be while others in the same subject have a really difficult but great teacher who is two weeks ahead of schedule. I think she'd trade places in a heartbeat even if it only meant getting an A-?</p>
<p>If it were in my school, I would bring up the issue of grading policies to the School Council, which is composed of parents and teachers, for that issue to be debated among teachers and administrators. There will always be differences among teachers. But I think that there ought to be a policy governing the granting (or not) of A+s (speaking as someone who was in a system where 16/20 was the equivalent of a summa cum laude and 18/20 was considered absolutely exceptional, I have to admit that I am baffled by the idea of A+ work).</p>
<p>Some of the grading unfairness you just have to categorize under "lesson in learning how to deal with difficult people." Later in life the kid might be clerking for the mean Supreme Court judge while his buddy is clerking for the nice Supreme Court judge...</p>
<p>I do recall that our school tried to eliminate differences between teachers as much as possible. Part of the reason was to reduce pleas by students to transfer from one class to another for the exact same topic (for instance two AP-Chemistry classes). Still, S's class had nearly twice as many students as the other, and almost all took the AP-test, compared to only a handful in the other class.</p>
<p>It's sad that anyone would turn their back on old friends. My friends from high school and college are closer than most of my 'current' ones- even though we hardly ever see one another anymore. They knew me back when... There are no facades, no leaning on economic or professional status, no impressing each other with our respective 'place in society'. We all knew each other when we were struggling in math, crying over the latest breakup, dealing with bad skin and weight problems, wondering if we were as weird to others as we felt inside. When I get together with old friends (we try to have a reunion every five years or so), it's like old times. Giggling, laughing, acting silly, being young again.</p>
<p>Re discrimination in grading- One way to eliminate differences in teachers is give every section the same test. In our school, we had two science teachers; one was obviously easier than the other and their tests were different. Students lined up to get into the easier teacher's class. Once they started issuing the same tests, though, students no longer wanted the easier teacher- they wanted the one who prepared them for the tests better, which was the more demanding teacher.</p>
<p>Marite, your son is not at ALL like the little Frankensteins that W-G is proposing parents create. I read the book, cover to cover, completely amazed as I read each chapter. She doesn't write about kids who are chomping at the bit for an opportunity to do what they love with like-minded kids. She writes about how to construct a completely false persona, or one built on the slightest imaginable EC interest. I would guess that the teacher's lounge at her sons' schools had a big dartboard with her photo at the center -- so heavy handed, and completely dismissive of the teachers' mission & expertise.</p>
<p>THe example that sticks in my mind is of a lackluster kid with absolutely no ECs entering senior year. She had the mom get the kid a camera, take a bunch of B&W shots, and then had the mom call her friend at a local bank to arrange a "gallery" showing in the lobby. Instant "Passion" -- It is loathsome, IMHO.</p>
<p>The state of FL has a summer program for 6 weeks, at state U. Totally free but for transportation. 36 kids accepted. Mine wasn't accepted after freshman year of HS, but after junior year. No doubt the research he did would have benefitted him for college applications, but he was already accepted to a good school. </p>
<p>He had a great time. Every vacation he still gets together with some of the terrific kids that he met at this program. I believe it was his best summer ever.</p>
<p>Marite, her school has a policy. Get a 98-100% and you get an A+. For a class like math which is all test, it's simple. Get everything right and you get an A+. For a class with papers, it's much more subjective. A teacher can just choose not to give any without violating policy because it's based on her judgment as to what constitutes 98%-100% on a paper.</p>
<p>I have read these and most of the others. Each has a few useul tidbits at best. The one I think is most worth reading is The Price of Admission. That book got down to the truthes I needed to understand to guide my son's application "strategy". I had no idea how little space there is for the unconnected at top schools. That sports got many more kids in than legacy, but that legacy was still big. That money still talked at schools despite their high profile searches for low income kids. I learned that these crazy busy adcom who don't like rich kids make time to go to their homes to meet them!
A friend used the Hernandez conulting organization and were told to take any mention of international travel, regatta sailing and anthing else that smacked of wealth off the application. He did but he's cleary rich if judged by his zip code and high school. I'm thnking they just want modest rich kids!</p>
<p>When my son and his friends got into top colleges EA/ED this year I asked for a peak at the class lists. They read about like I would have thougt they did in the 60s. Many many more Danforth Rockefeller Howell V's from Andover and Thatcher than kids from mainstream America. Bush and clan are alive and well at ivies despite the high profile search for low income kids and plans to help a few hundred midde class famiies.</p>
<p>The anecdotes here, in my mind, are the exceptions. Kids with very involved parents who genuinely helped them develop passions.</p>
<p>Yes, I realize, from the review and the posts, that W-G has a strategy that sounds pretty odd to me, and possibly reprehensible, in that it seeks to create Frankenstein applicants. I was more reacting to the summer camp vs. friends posts, which themselves were inspired by the review. I also have to say that I have never heard from parents that they sent their kids to particular enrichment activities for the sake of their r</p>
<p>Thanks, CRD. S's teachers occasionally gave grades above 100 (for a bonus question, for example), but these always translated to As, not A+s. Even so, I come from a system where it's well nigh impossible to get a perfect grade on tests where there can only be one correct solution. My kids were utterly baffled when their cousin practically did cartwheels upon learning that she'd gotten a 16/20 on her biology test for the Bac. As she should. But they translated that to an 80/100 and were totally unimpressed! they were dumbfounded to learn that you could get the equivalent of a cum laude on the Bac with an average score of 12/200.</p>