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<p>You show me a type of college that doesn’t use Yale as a gold standard to some extent and I’ll show you a college that probably isn’t being paid for by someone’s retirement funds.</p>
<p>Yale is not the kind of college that is generally paid for by someone’s retirement funds because it’s rich enough that it gives really, really good need based aid to its students. The number of colleges and universities in this country that are need blind and promise to meet full need for all accepted students for all four years is really quite small and getting smaller every year.</p>
<p>Yale is a very atypical institution on a number of levels. Therefore it is not a good example of any widespread trend in higher education. The vast majority of other colleges can’t afford to copy it.</p>
<p>Kelsmom: You’re obviously not from California. Living off-campus in California is NOT cheaper than living in the dorms. That’s a large part of the problem. Some of the UC’s were built in areas where the cost of living in the neighborhood was already overpriced. UCSD is in La Jolla. The students cannot afford to live in the same neighborhood as the school, and public transportation is almost non-existent, and the area has hilly canyons which are difficult to bike, much less walk. </p>
<p>Ana’s Dad and Chardo: My daughter applied to 20 schools and did apply out-of-state, but the packages that were presented by several schools, equated to the same costs as us keeping her instate. It was a wash. </p>
<p>FYI: Ana’s Dad the grades were not “inflated”, you’re insulting her school and her ability. She had 5’s on her APs: Calc, Chem, Govt, APEC, Art History, English and others. She had two classmates who published novels, more than several classmates with 2400’s; the valedictorian did summer research in a Russian orphanage. She and 6 of her Biotech classmates did cellular mapping research at the National Microscopy Image Research Center at the UCSD School of Medicine. This was not grade inflation. She worked hard, so please don’t insult what you don’t know.</p>
<p>You can’t apply to 20 random schools and expect to get big merit aid - you have to target the right schools.</p>
<p>Residential life can be much cheaper than living in dorms, you just have to be willing to live in perhaps more crowded situations than you were used to at home.
My youngest lives in a house with five other girls & shares 1 & 1/2 bathrooms.
But then she was raised in a house with one bathroom.;)</p>
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<p>But, let’s get back to the subject of this thread. It’s the need-based colleges, often synonymous with the most prestigious colleges in the country, where most of the complaints are coming from. If a college doesn’t offer need-based financial aid, what’s to complain about? You know up front what the sticker price is.</p>
<p>I know the WSJ article may be locked for non-subscribers, but take a look at the video that accompanies the site: [College</a> Debt Hits Well-Off - WSJ.com](<a href=“http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444246904577575382576303876.html?mod=wsj_share_tweet#articleTabs%3Dvideo]College”>http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444246904577575382576303876.html?mod=wsj_share_tweet#articleTabs%3Dvideo)</p>
<p>It’s pretty obvious which colleges they are talking about (I’ll cede that some of the same complaints may surround some of the top flag-ship publics, but even they have need-based financial aid.) The subject of this thread may indeed revolve around a relatively small universe of colleges, but that doesn’t surprise me.</p>
<p>Things are not fair. It is terribly unfair that a child is born to a family that cannot give him/her the most basic needs adequately, never mind educational opportunities to make it probable to go to college right after high school. When you compare such a child to one born to a family where the focus is on giving the child the best of everything, the divide is wide.</p>
<p>So why does anyone think it’s going to be any different for it to be unfair in that very tiny sliver of those who aspire and have the academic accomplishments to get into what is pretty much known as the “best” colleges. The ones Johnwesley is probably referring to. Those colleges with name recognition , low acceptance rates, full financial aid for those in need, very few or no merit awards, and generally private (with some exceptions) and very expensive.</p>
<p>For those who target these colleges and havet he stats for a shot of getting in, which tend to make the top lists each year, it is better AT THE TIME OF ADMISSIONS tp have a poor family than to have a family who has the money but can’t or won’t pay what it costs. That is absolutely true. If you are a student in this group, and been accepted to HPYMS and more, but your parents assets and income mean little or no financial aid, and they have bills up the whazooii, live in an expensive area with no intentions to move soon, and little or no savings, or monies that they will not release for college, then you are likely not going to be able to afford to go to those accepted schools. THere have been students in this category. I’ve also personally known some. Thei parents’ credit is shot so they can’t borrow, they have nothing in savings or won’t go into it, and their income is already claimed each month, so they cannot come up with $60K a year. </p>
<p>As an example, a close friend of mine has a daughter in that situation. She is divorced and dad was high income. Like very high income. My friend, has been struggling just to keep her head up out of water. Daughte was an excellent student who wanted to go to Oberlin. Dad refused to pay, Said he would have paid for HPYSM or certain other schools to which she was not accepted, but felt Oberlin was not worth the price, nor were any of the other excellent private school where she was accepted. Whether he would have paid for what he regarded as a top school we will never know because she did not get accepted to any of them. Oberlin was welcoming and wonderful until she and her mother explained their situation, and they then became grim faced and refused to come up with a dime of college money. Dad could pay, but wouldn’t, so too bad, so sad and State U is really a very good school. OBerlin told them.</p>
<p>And to State U she went, and even commuted, as she didn’t get much money from them. Mom was not PELL eligible, so it was just loans, and Dad kicked in exactly half of the cost. Said he would have paid more if Mom’s EFC were lower than half the cost. According to that state’ s law, he didn’t have to pay anything.</p>
<p>This happens a lot, and with intact families too. When my kid were accepted to college, each time there were families who would have done nearly anything to pay for HPY were instead faced with the decision of whether schools, not as well known or on that list, but private schools that cost just as much were “worth” paying big bucks for, or would that school that offered the merit money or a State U be “just as good”. For us , we had put a dollar limit on what we could afford, so my son just took off the table what was not in that category, and chose from there. But had he not, we would have been stuck with the same quesitions as such families. Is Northeaster at full price worth Drexel at 2/3 the cost versus Pitt at about half the cost vs a SUNY at 1/3 the cost vs Small Local Catholic college for free? Or Fordham as a commuter school also in the consideration. Those are the choices that the familes and kids face. Now if that kid got into Harvard, the family would be tumbling head over heels most of the time to come up with the money, happily grumbling and complaining. Most of the time, though I’ve known parents who just don’t or won’t pay for any school though the calculators all say they can and the schools won’t give the money to the student. </p>
<p>So absolutely YES, it is unfair to that group of kids. But, those kids are blessed having lived pretty upscale lives most of the time, and going to a lesser known school on scholarship or to State U is not a huge thing as compared to problems we have with parents negelecting, abusing their kids so they never even have much of a chance to be in the position to be treated so unfairly. </p>
<p>That is one sliver of the unfairness of the financial aid system of colleges, but next to all of the other unfair things in the process, it is minute.</p>
<p>*So absolutely YES, it is unfair to that group of kids. But, those kids are blessed having lived pretty upscale lives most of the time, and going to a lesser known school on scholarship or to State U is not a huge thing as compared to problems we have with parents negelecting, abusing their kids so they never even have much of a chance to be in the position to be treated so unfairly. *</p>
<p>My oldest had the opportunity to attend a college that meets full need. What we were expected to pay was about the same % of our before tax income as a family who earns $200,000 and is full pay, although after the % we had a lot less left to live on. She was first gen and it was before CC and I didn’t know about schools that would have reduced our need even more with merit. </p>
<p>I think all families have stickershock when it comes to paying for higher Ed, but those who have had higher incomes than the median at least have had more flexibility to build savings.</p>
<p>Emeraldkity, I agree. It is difficult for families like yours. But your daughter was in a better situation at that time for that decision than a student from a family making $200K who won’t pay what the calculators and colleges say they should. I see a lot of those. My cousin is strapped from what she has to pay for her son to go to the college of his choice even with aid, and even saving, but her son had the choices. She acknowledges that there are kids from much higher income families for whom money was even a bigger obstacle because the parents won’t pay what is asked of them. Ironically, some of those kids think her son is “lucky” to get the financial aid and have made remarks how it “pays to be poor”. That what my cousin’s family is expected to pay is the same proportion of income that they would be expected to pay, or in many cases for well to do families, less, especially since my cousin did save for her son’s college, is not something they want to address. They will focus on the aid he got.</p>
<p>It seems a big part of the problem is the definition of ‘kid’. </p>
<p>From the FA perspective it you are a ‘kid’ until your 24 - although I seem to remember a thread which talked about the fact that parents assets and income are considered available to ‘kids’ up to 26 when it comes to grad school. </p>
<p>From a legal stand point in regards to parental access to grades - you are an adult at 18.</p>
<p>From a Health insurance standpoint - you are now a ‘kid’ until you are 26.</p>
<p>From a Health privacy standpoint - you are an adult at 12 (when any reproductive health care details are kept private and are not accessible to the parent unless the ‘adult’ in this case give permission.</p>
<p>Go figure - problems and absurdities exist in this system.</p>
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<p>I’m a Californian, and I disagree–there is PLENTY of room for high-stats kids at California state schools. They won’t all be going to Cal, UCLA or San Diego, but they certainly will be going to a UC or highly regarded Cal State. </p>
<p>There isn’t financial or merit aid for all of them, and COA is going to be higher than some can afford. That might make some of those schools unaffordable. That’s a different issue. Plenty of these high stats kids are realizing that they can find merit money at various out of state schools. One young friend leaves this weekend for Ohio State, where his COA will be around $20k a year thanks to merit aid. He applied to UCs, was admitted to several, but is following the money. </p>
<p>It can be cheaper to live off campus. Housing prices are depressed enough around IIRC Merced and Riverside that groups of students can rent McMansions that come with hot tubs and get their own bedrooms for less than living on campus. Students around more urban campuses can go cheap by cramming more students into a small apartment and cooking cheap meals. That’s a lot to ask of a freshman without any social contacts, though.</p>
<p>I don’t think freshmen should live off campus. Transitioning to college is a big enough change without adding household chores like shopping and cooking.
But at many schools it seems they barely have room for freshmen to live on campus let alone anyone else. You often hear about rooms for two being divided for three, or students bunking in the common room for a few weeks.
They are always building though!</p>
<p>My youngest was able to find a roommate on her college message board before freshmen year who was a good fit, and I imagine other schools have the same resources.</p>
<p>Dietz, it is crazy, but that is the way it works and it is even worse than that. You can’t drink alcohol legally or purchase certain things until you are 21. Males have to register for the draft and can be drafted at age 18. HIPPA is in full effect at age 18, and you can enter into a contract at that age. In some states you can consent to get married pretty danged young.</p>
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<p>Exactly right. There are schools where a student with the statistics that Aunt Bea says her daughter had would have received an enormous amount of financial aid. Too bad she didn’t apply to any of them.</p>
<p>I sure don’t want to beat Aunt Bea up for not perhaps knowing about the CC threads that list 100% free tuition schools and guaranteed merit aid schools, but I do also want to not concede her point:</p>
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<p>…because yes, it does translate into automatic merit aid scholarships. Just not at every school. But at many.</p>
<p>The important thing to remember is that it doesn’t necessarily translate into automatic merit at any schools your kid might consider attending. And if you aren’t going to “make” your kid go to one of those schools … well, it is what it is.</p>
<p>Even though I didn’t have CC when oldest was looking, 
and even though she was first gen and we knew very little about college, I will say that there was at least two schools that called her regularly without her ever expressing interest, that assured her she would recieved huge merit aid to attend.( they were both smallish schools, with more of a conservative/religious feel than she was looking for- considering she came out jr year- we didn’t feel it was a good fit.
(I don’t know where they got our phone number, do they get that off the College Board forms?)</p>
<p>She was accepted to all the schools she applied as a senior, but when we visited before deciding, the school that had been her top choice, just didn’t seem right anymore.
So she took a gap year, and we found another school that even though it was a reach academically, they guaranteed to meet 100% of need, and it seemed like a much better fit.
It all worked out.</p>
<p>I gave a real life example with my cousin’s son and their family situation. He is a good student with good. but not top of the line test scores and the family is at the range where their EFC is about what the state school would cost. THey did save some money for college and the young man has been working and saving as well, and will continue to do so through college. The family is going to scrimp during those college years to avoid borrowing, though will do so to stretch those payments over a few extra years. </p>
<p>In his case, a local catholic school and the local state branch which is a 4 year school, both offered him tuition free scholarships. So if he commuted, he would be set. Even be able to afford a nice car in the mix. Maybe live off campus jr/sr years if he worked it right. Those were actually better deals than the local community college which did not offer more than a small scholarhship though its sticker price was lower than those two schools.</p>
<p>State U was not forthcoming with the money, and the amount the privates expected him to pay was more than the FAFSA EFC, but in the mix was a school that came out to be just about affordable with their financial aid, Stafford loans, working during the school year. Applying to a mix of schools gave him an array of options and showed him how even like schools varied in their aid packages. Also getting into the most generous schools is not easy. This is the sort of mix a good student should have if s/he wants/needs money.</p>
<p>In general, the schools that meet 100% need typically don’t provide much if any merit aid, and the schools that provide the best merit aid typically don’t come close to meeting 100% of need. There are a few colleges that provide both - mainly liberal arts colleges with large endowments, such as Lafayette and Dickinson Colleges. </p>
<p>The percentage of need met, info on merit aid and similar useful data are typically on the “common data set” for each college, which can usually be found in a google search on the college’s website. They often don’t make it real easy to find through the front door of their website.</p>
<p>I’m sorry but most CA residents steer clear of UC Merced and would prefer a state school. They have a hard time getting kids in the state to go there. Regardless of how cheap housing maybe.</p>
<p>Ohio State seems like a great school, but the sticker even with merit of $20k would make alternatives like CalPoly SLO attractive with saving on airfare and what not. Ohio is definitely a bigger up and coming school. But SLO has its pluses as well. If even with aid $20k is a deal I’m surprised. Most CA residents with incomes around $100k that own a home, do not have $20k lying around after property tax, mortgage, income tax, paying into retirement etc. If you went back 10-15 yrs UCB was less than $20k a year without any type of aid.</p>