WSJ:Grads With Technical Majors Earn More Than Those with Liberal Arts Degrees

Parent Cafe
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<p>Dad’o’2: No apologies necessary. Thanks for explaining the ongoing inquiry.</p>

<p>To be fair, it is hard to find jobs in this economy. There are times I <em>do</em> wish both kids had pursued the techy end of things. My S doing Classics had over 700 on his MATH SAT’s and a very respectable score on the Calc AP. Clearly the material is not over his head. But we are a word based artistic family. Not by design. They have just followed my down my primrose path – PhD in a humanities discipline.</p>

<p>My dad, who majored in math and statistics in college, was so adept with words that he ended his career in an uber-corporate setting writing. My mom the same, although he degree was in social sciences.</p>

<p>I loved chem and physics, but as a girl in the late sixties, I was afraid that my math skills would not support me to get to the place I wanted to be in those disciplines.</p>

<p>You see, I think we are all easily bored and just drift toward those endeavors that engage our restless natures.</p>

<p>My H has enormous technical ability and could have gone the engineering route but didn’t even think of it. He has had a good, solid career as a photographer that wouldn’t have been possible without technical skills, both for the complex relationship between film speed, aperture and light and now the very demanding mistress of photo shop. He can light and shoot anything – a great skill.</p>

<p>But I digress.</p>

<p>Yes, it’s not so easy to figure out where we folks will land. I teach literature. Love it. My bro is head of all public broadcasting for the state of Wisconsin with a communications degree. Loves it. My H takes pictures. He would say down that he uploads pictures and works with them on the computer – the new job of the photographer. He loves it. My mom worked in civil service. My D proofreads briefs to help put her through law school. Loves it because she gains knowledge in her field.</p>

<p>So here are things to do:
Proof reading – both hard copy and print.<br>
Hospitality industry.
Entry positions in broadcasting and film.
Consulting firms.
Advertising.
Museum work.
Libraries.
High school teaching.
Primary school teaching.
Civil Service – primarily social services.
Work in NGO’s as someone already stipulated.
Entry level college administration. </p>

<p>There are three possible approaches – move to the big city (as young people have had to do for generations, develop leads in communities where one attends college, or exploit connections back home.</p>

<p>DD is in NYC. DS has had some success getting interesting work in his very small college town. He spent the summer doing all around (not elevated) work in a museum and really enjoyed it. If he came home DH would have work for him.</p>

<p>This is how we did it. It’s not as easy as walking into an engineering job, for sure. But not everyone has the temperament or skills for that.</p>

<p>The last solution is to bite the bullet and go to grad school of some sort right out of the pen.</p>

<p>Good luck to all those kids. It certainly is true that without ingenuity and persistence prospects for Humanities and Social Science grads don’t necessarily look any better than those of high grads. They are, but one has to look carefully.</p>

<p>And dad – your good will and kindness are very obvious.</p>

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<p>

And often no “typical” path in the same sense as, say, engineering. Also, the formula “best school + best grades = best jobs” often doesn’t hold true.
Personal interests, opportunities, and chance encounters can and often do play huge.</p>

<p>It’s not just engineers who worry about their child majoring in the liberal arts, parents with liberal arts degrees worry, too. Dado2 worries because he doesn’t know the landscape. We worry because we do. I think the greatest and simultaneously scariest aspect of liberal arts degrees is that there really are so many opportunities and paths to them.</p>

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<p>I worry when I see girls WITH a good tech aptitude, and esp with ADHD or some hint of an autism spectrum disorder, drifting towards the LA. IE folks whos personality traits make them less fit for most typical LA paths than many other folks, and who could do well in a STEM path, but who drift in a direction without much guidance or mentoring in part because of gender stereotypes. </p>

<p>Thats just my krecht (particular worry. literally “itch”)</p>

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<p>Do you see gender stereotypes playing out these days, BBD? My D likes chemistry and I’ve seen no evidence that anyone has ever suggested that she shouldn’t pursue that field. Even back in the ancient days when I attended college, there were tons of female science / engineering majors. No one thought twice about it.</p>

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<p>My own DD was drifting that way - not that someone was saying “No, dont go there” but there werent many role models - even at a place like TJ, a lot of the STEM oriented girls are focused on biology/medicine. DD, with no interest in Bio, in sophomore year had no strong academic passion. Till she lucked out and had CAD class with a female engineer, newly come over from industry, who saw her visual spatial skills,and mentored her. Unfortunately that teacher went to a different school due to budget cuts. DD is still focused on Architecture with a structural E emphasis. </p>

<p>I know a friend of my DDs, who at least looks like she has NVLD, and who was programming HTML I think it was in 6th grade, and Java not long after that, who went to a private school after having issues in public school, and who is now majoring in musical theater. I have strongly suggested to her that she at least take a few Comp sci classes, as a back up. She is now talking about law school, though I dont think I can see her doing that. Fortunately her parents have enough money to give her a few second chances, should she need them.</p>

<p>So where do I see it? I see it more in engineering/comp sci, than in the natural sciences. And I dont see it as folks saying “dont go there” as much as folks not being as likely to suggest it to a female, as they are to a male. And still fewer role models (though clearly far from zero).</p>

<p>here is an article from 5 years ago that specifically mentions TJ</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52344-2005Jan31.html[/url]”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52344-2005Jan31.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>latest on that popular blind alley for LA majors - (hats off) s/he’ll be going on to LAW SCHOOL</p>

<p>[When</a> law school becomes a bad investment](<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/30/AR2010103004638.html?referrer=emailarticle]When”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/30/AR2010103004638.html?referrer=emailarticle)</p>

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<p>DD has wanted to be a lawyer since she was 7. No dissuading her. She did listen to reason and attends a public with under $11K per year tuition. Unfortunately, living coasts are steep. She wants to do public interest law and is very focused. She isn’t looking for a high starting salary. If her loans get to be crushing, I will just have to help her through. I am proud that she feels so strongly about issues like the death penalty. She has already had internships in appellate law and knows where she is going.</p>

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<p>bully for your DD mythmom. just do her a favor and suggest she minor in a marketable skill so she can get a dayjob to support her charitable legal activities. better yet, have her check out some of these anti law school blogs. apparently some less fortunate LSGs need to make a living, if only to pay off their loans.</p>

<p>[Legal</a> Blog Watch](<a href=“Legal Blog Watch”>Legal Blog Watch)</p>

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<p>^ toodleooo,<br>
I think your posts and some of the blogs you link to dramatically overstate the situation. A lot depends on what law school one attends. But that’s always been the case. There’s been a huge oversupply of lawyers at the bottom end of the market for a long time, and some lower-tier law schools have had a terrible track record in placing their students for many, many years. At that level, it truly is a “scam.” The better law schools have done much better, however, with placement rates nearing 100% when the economy is good—better than some engineering schools. The recent Great Recession hit everyone hard, and even some graduates of top law schools have had a hard time finding full-time professional employment in the last couple of graduating classes. But that’s been true in many technical fields, too; I’ve read some news stories that said in 2009 and 2010 communications majors were doing better in the job market than computer science grads. </p>

<p>Friends I talk to who are lawyers or who teach or are administrators at our local public flagship law school (rated in the top 20-25 nationally) think at that level of the market the recent job woes are mainly a cyclical phenomenon. In fact, some people at the law firms say their business has already picked up enough that in a “normal” year they’d be increasing their hiring pretty significantly, but their management committees are a little gun-shy after being hit so hard by the recession. These folks say by next year they’ll probably need to hire twice as many entry-level people as they usually do just to begin to reduce the backlog. I’d be cautious about recommending any law school below the top 25 or 30 right now, but I think it’s a pretty safe bet that employment prospects will be strong for graduates of schools in the 1-25 or 1-30 range by the time they’re graduating law school. Much below that and it can be a riskier proposition; just how risky depends on the school, and on the condition of the legal market it serves. Some are in terrible shape; others are doing quite well. But that’s also true of the economy as a whole.</p>

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<p>She is not at a top 30 law school, but she is at CUNY, which is well-known in NYC for staffing public interest positions. Ruth Bader Ginsburg has publicly commended the program and its law clinics are in the top ten. It’s in a strange position to be feeding a city that needs a lot of public interest lawyers.</p>

<p>There was such an influx of applications that even with very good stats the top slots were taken by the time she got her LSAT’s done and applications in. She was accepted at several Tier One schools, but none in the very top. Two offered her no money, and the one that offered significant money was not in NYC. She reasoned that she would be better making connections to the organizations she wants to work at. We’ll see how her strategy goes.</p>

<p>I would have felt very uncomfortable at a $135,000.00K gamble. A $33K gamble seems an acceptable risk to me. YMMV.</p>

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<p>In other news, the sky is still blue.</p>

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<p>this thread began with a WSJ article on the earning potential of sci/tech compared to LA majors. and many cc parents seem to think their kid can parlay a useless LA degree into a real career by going to law school. my wife has been a successful atty for 30 yrs, and i hear the talk among such seasoned folks about the state of their profession. not good, and not just lately. the anti-law school blogs are less graceful about the subject, given that the contributors are un/der-employed LSGs, so here’s another WSJ link discussing how law schools gild the lilly regarding how their graduates fare after, well, graduation:</p>

<p>[On</a> Law Schools and Employment Data: Is the ABA the Answer? - Law Blog - WSJ](<a href=“On Law Schools and Employment Data: Is the ABA the Answer? - WSJ”>On Law Schools and Employment Data: Is the ABA the Answer? - WSJ)</p>

<p>my thought is that if a family can at best provide a 4-year college education, the graduate should be strongly encouraged to diversify that education so it contains at least a minor in a marketable skill. realizing as i do that using this term will generate numerous responses asking what exactly such study might be, i guess i’ll just close by saying if you need to be told what subjects are more likely to lead to a job, your kid is probably not going to benefit from this discussion anyway. maybe at least teach him/her how to fish.</p>

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<p>In an urban setting like NYC one can always bar tend or sell clothes at a high end boutique or be a hostess or even wait tables. I don’t think a marketable skill is really the issue.</p>

<p>And my D worked in an office on campus her entire four years of UG.</p>

<p>I don’t think law school is a good plan for someone not interested. But for someone who has always wanted to be a lawyer for its own sake, not for its remunerative potential, I would always encourage a kid to go for it.</p>

<p>In the seventies my family was appalled that I chose PhD in literature over, you guessed it, law school. I have been employed in a tenure track/tenured position for 25 years, and I have been mostly satisfied with my profession. It allowed me to be a full-time worker and a full-time mom, a combination that has been precious to me.</p>

<p>I almost didn’t go to grad school. I graduated into a recession in 1973, but after working for social services as a foster care case worker, a well-paid and satisfying job I was suited for, I realized I missed the intellectual stimulation of academics.</p>

<p>Dreams are worth pursuing if they are pursued with eyes open. Too much attention to Plan B dilutes the resolve, in my opinion. Time to develop plan B later on. My D will be only 25 when she finished law school, okay , almost 26. If she can’t be employed, plenty of time to switch gears.</p>

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<p>Just get an engineering, physical sciences (geophysics, physics, chemistry, computers, applied math but stay the hell away from pure math) or finance degree. Avoid biology and most of all avoid anything that needs excessive use of the English language. Excessive use of English is correlated with poverty. You should only know enough English to understand physics. Every other word is wasted.</p>