We are talking about scientists. Looking at the Siemens winners they are not coming from states like Mississippi and Louisiana but California Massachusetts Illinois and New York. The average spending per pupil is about 12k . Tuition at Exeter is 36k. I think I am starting to see a pattern Hmm
And what is the avg spend per student at Stuy & Bronx Science?
I am well aware of what boarding schools spend their money on. Much of the money at Exeter is spent on sports and facillities. Maintaining squash courts & hockey rink doesn’t come cheap.
Maybe, but can you identify the cause and the effect?
My point was looking at ACT scores is a poor way to determine how many scientists should be a certain race. There would only be true if there was a hard score threshold to be a scientist that was constant among all groups, and a constant portion of students who met that threshold wanted to be a scientist.
For example, suppose Asian and White students are more likely to want to attend a selective college, and as such average more time studying/ or with tutors for ACT. If this is true, the the ratio of ACT scores between races is not expected to reflect the ratio of academically prepared students in different races. Or suppose a large component of wanting to become a scientists relates to role models, such as having a parent of family member who pursued advanced STEM degrees and encourages/pressures their children to do so, or seeing professors of the same race in the classroom. If this occurs, then again a lower rate of Black scientists is expected to occur. Suppose higher SES groups are more likely to attend college and pursue fields that typically require advanced degrees such as many types of scientists. If this occurs, then the highest average SES races of Asian and White are expected to have a higher rate of being scientists than Black students. Or suppose becoming a scientist largely relates to getting a good start in grade school with advanced courses and not starting behind most other students in STEM classes during college. If this is true, then again a lower rate of Black scientists is expected to occur. I could go on, but the point is there are far more variables in the ratio of Black scientists to other races than just ACT score.
Or using a real world example, I have a relative who was of mixed ethnicity during a period when racial segregation occurred in the south. She and her husband received PhDs from a HSBU, which was extremely uncommon at the time and passed those educational values on to their children, such that they also pursued college degrees, and one did become a scientist. Their children were literally the first persons to even take the SAT at their segregated HS (white students attended a different one). The vast majority of other black/mixed students didn’t even consider college as an option because it was not suggested by parents or society. Obviously things have improved quite a bit since this period, but things like the experiences of parents and pressure from society still play a large role in career choices, and this cannot be measured well by ACT score.
I’m sure there are Asians here and maybe a Hispanic or two.
What are we missing?
The white to asian ratio on ACT high scores described above is about 6 or 8 to one. How come there is not the same ratio at the Ivies or Stanford? It is about half of that
I know I sound like a broken record but I think this is a point that has to be repeated over and over…
It’s not simply about bad/toxic environments, bad schools, or the curriculum. There is an automatic assumption among your normal, average, good teachers and counselors that black boys don’t want/aren’t cut out for/won’t last (pick your phrase) in a high-academic path. It’s an option that’s rarely offered or encouraged. Not even in “good” schools.
When my son was in middle school, his 7th grade math teacher recommended that my son take the high math track going into high school. My son was surprised because no teacher had ever told him he was that good in math. That teacher’s response was “you’re a talented math student.” That was the ONLY time during his entire school career that a teacher or guidance counselor tried to steer him to a high math/science path. That says a lot. We live in a well-educated college town; if kids get teased, it’s for being stupid, not smart. My son’s known as a musician but still takes calculus, physics, and has a 3.8 GPA.
There are SO many above-average smart black kids who go unnoticed because schools are simply happy they’re not in trouble, and getting good grades. They need guidance counselors who are willing to seek them out, encourage them to prep for ACT/SAT’s and re-take them, and convince them that they do, in fact, have what it takes to get into good schools, become engineers.
Actually, I do.
This is presuming that SAT/ACT prep does a lot of good. The evidence does not bear that out - prep is good on average for about 30 SAT points according to a 2009 study: http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB124278685697537839.
Naval there is also lots of evidence that test prep can raise your SAT score around 200 to 250 points
Unbiased evidence by whom? By the test prep companies?
There is a difference between taking a quick prep class and spending weeks/months studying for the test. Take a look at the test prep forum of this site at http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/sat-act-tests-test-preparation/ . It’s common for forum members to gain hundreds of points on their SAT score after studying. For example, in the thread at http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/sat-preparation/1637676-how-i-raised-my-sat-score-by-790-points-my-story-p1.html a student discusses the studying method he used to increase his SAT score by 790 points from 1420 to 2210. He mentions taking 65 practice tests and 25 previously administered tests over the course a year, among many other things.
The average gains from test prep are probably low, but there can certainly be some students who would gain a lot more from good test prep (of course, not all test prep is good).
“Average”
I have read but can’t source, that at some black schools academic awards are given out without any sort of announcement lest the recipients be the targets of bullying.
A couple of personal anecdotes: My son was in seventh-grade algebra and came home to tell me he did poorly on a test, scoring say a 70. He then began to list all of these kids I knew and their scores, ranging from 38 to 65, making his score the best of a bad lot. I then asked him, “How did __________ do?” My son looked at me with a look of exasperation and said, “Dad, he’s ASIAN!” He thought it unfair that I would expect him to do as well on an algebra test as an Asian student.
Last year my son participated in some type of statewide Science Bowl or Olympiad that involved the taking of a biology test. Most of the kids there had completed AP biology, but my son and his friends were still enrolled and only a third of the way through the course. My son scored in the 50th percentile of those taking the test, which was a good score considering the circumstances. His classmates, the aforesaid Asian kid and an Indian student, scored in the 95th percentile. I asked my son why they did so much better, and he said, “Dad, they read the entire textbook,” with a tone suggesting that he would never do such a thing.
There are two points here. There is empirical evidence which shows that Asian kids spend far more time studying than white kids, who in turn spend far more time studying than black kids. Second, the brightest white kids frequently won’t even try to compete with the brightest Asian students, and the brightest black kids won’t even try to compete with the brightest white kids. So the kids work just enough to be the best of their peer group and no more. (And yes, there will always be kids who break out of this mold, but I’m talking about patterns).
This isn’t the only thing gong on, but it’s out there, and I’m sure many of you have seen it.
Kids live up to expectations; there are different expectations for Asian, white, black. But it’s a mistake to assume that those expectations are set by the kids themselves, or even the parents. It’s entrenched everywhere.
One of the reasons I’m vocal about this is because I’m Asian and my son is black. He’s growing up in the same school system that I grew up in, and the differences have been surprising.
Re #153
Stereotyping and its corrosive effects start early, resulting in self fulfilling academic achievement below potential.
That’s a really poor study design, not to mention self-serving by CB.
That being said, lotsa prep is not gonna get an average kid to score 750. What prep does offer, however, is some practice at reasoning skills, which are needed to score well.
@bluebayou I think some prep works by actually teaching the students the material. For example, if they take the test and miss certain math problems, they can take the time to actually learn the material.
There are a few “tricks” that are helpful and can increase one’s score a bit. Being familiar with the test helps. I really think some students don’t even look at the practice test.
Many black parents in our neighborhood pull their boys out of the public schools in high school because of the issue of being derided for “acting white”. You can get a great education at our public high school, but too many black kids are getting in with the wrong crowd and discouraged from taking rigorous schedules.
I knew if I stayed away for a bit there would be something new to talk about! :))
Here are my anectdotes (Skip this if you’ve heard it before. )
My husband is fist gen in America and college and I am second. Where I grew up, poor and middle class neighborhood but all black, a neighbor told me “Nobody gets to be a doctor”. I assume he meant nobody black, and while I had no proof, I knew it wasn’t so. Husband went to Bronx Science and Columbia, I went to a HS that has since been closed becuase the grad rate was so low, and then to an HBCU. (GO BISONS!)
We ended up at the same place; Yeshiva; Albert Einstein 
Fast forward to two kids, as different as night and day. Older daughter the perfect student, some called her “the smartest” in the school; and son a helion, who by 9th grade we just prayed would graduate. He got kicked out of class a lot, but did so well on tests they said he was cheating. (He was the one telling his friends no cheat. )
Long story short; he plays competative soccer, and ends up with a bunch of really ambitious kids, and that changes everything. He is the only black kid on the team.
I’m sure there is a message in there somewhere…oh yeah…father and I disagreed on the whole test prep thing. My D got a lot of mail after taking the PSAT, and H says she should prep and take the SAT twice ( that was his Booklyn tech and Columbia fraternization). I thought that was crazy ( my mainstream backround) did an internet search, and that’s how I ended up here! ^:)^
She did not take it twice, but did fine.
Son DID take SAT twice, and bumped it up about 150 points, (into that “sweet spot” for AA men according to that VERY old SAT research).
It was torture, for me at least, but he graduated this summer with a BS in mech eng. :">