<p>My older son is a math-physics major at Brown University who, during high school, obtained 5s on all his AP tests by studying the night before ONLY --he put no effort into it. His Brown classes in math and physics (even the intro ones for majors) are at an enormously higher level and could never be approached this way. Therefore, I have to weigh in here that it's absurd to think that someone who earns a 5 on an AP test has done the same thing, or mastered as much material, as someone who earns an A at a school like Brown or many others. </p>
<p>We really are talking about apples and oranges. </p>
<p>I would not encourage any student to skip intro courses at top schools based on the score of 5 on an AP test unless they have also had their level of mastery assessed by a more rigorous measure.</p>
<p>I would discount the "No effort" argument. Just because students do not pull all-nighters and spend all their weekends doing homework does not mean they are not absorbing the information they need. It just means that they have an aptitude for the subject.
It is possible that by some fluke a student can do well enough on a test to earn a higher score than s/he deserves (the test might contain mostly questions the student has mastered and leave out legitimate ones that the student would have answered wrongly for lack of preparation). But on the whole, the tests for BC Calc and Physics C have been considered reliable gauge of a student's mastery of these two subjects.
I have a very hard time believing that Brown's introductory math and physics courses are that much harder than MIT's, yet MIT does not shirk from giving credit for 5s on BC Calc and Physics C.</p>
<p>Though they give credit, I have a hard time believing that the MIT course is the same as the AP course --or that the MIT tests are as easy to ace as the AP tests. However, a student with the stats to obtain admission to MIT can probably make up what has been missed.</p>
<p>The BC curriculum is considered to be the equivalent of 2/3 of an introductory college Calculus sequence (Calc 1 and Calc2). So, a student with a score of 5 on the BC exam would need to make up 1/3 of the MIT or Brown course. But that does not mean the student should repeat the course.</p>
<p>Here is an excerpt from the Harvard math handbook: 'Note that Mathematics 1b covers more than what is tested on the BC Advanced Placement Test. Some students with high BC scores who skip Math 1b find themselves unprepared for calculus applications in other courses, especially in Applied Mathematics courses."</p>
<p>For what it's worth, my S took MV Calc and Linear Algebra (as well as more advanced math classes later). He was well prepared for these courses. He has little interest in applied math, which is Brown's area of strength (and why he did not apply to Brown)</p>
<p>Calmom -- maybe you missed the post where I clarified that this session with UC admissions was specific to our particular district, a district with which UC was very familiar. They knew there were some students there who were already graduating with 16, 17, 18 semesters of AP and that if the district opened up more sections, there could be more. </p>
<p>I don't know how to make you believe that I didn't misinterpret the "17 semesters" except to say that it was on videotape, I borrowed the tape, paused and replayed that section because even knowing how much AP was available at my kids' school, I was still stunned to hear "17 semesters" even though my own son at the time was finishing up high school with 16 himself. He is a Stanford grad, pretty much sailed through S getting a B.S. and an M.S. in math-related fields and almost finishing a second bachelor's in CS (all in five years, partly because of the AP credits he came in with). He was nearly crushed by the demands of high school. This school treated AP's like college classes, and he did get 5's on all but one test (Chemistry - 4). He said he was overprepared for Stanford. My personal feeling is that this was unnecessary. Nice for him because he survived it, but survive is the word and I would like to see our children do better than "survive" high school.</p>
<p>" His Brown classes in math and physics (even the intro ones for majors) are at an enormously higher level "</p>
<p>I would hope this is the case, especially at a school like Brown. The sciences and math are notable for offering introductory classes at varied levels (at least at most colleges - is Brown an exception?), recognizing the differing preparation levels and different goals of students. Most would agree that AP courses best translate to the lower level introductory courses. Indeed, many colleges grant credit for AP exam scores, or equate them, to the lower level intro courses.</p>
<p>Some schools have directly addressed these limitations by offering special courses for kids that scored well on AP courses, or strongly recommending that kids forgo AP credit and take the class. Chicago, for instance, has a special 2 quarter Bio sequence, commonly called the AP 5, for kids that got (surprise!) a 5 on the Bio exam. They strongly encourage science majors to take honors first year chem instead of AP credit, but do not insist. Math is curious, as Chicago requires that everyone take a math placement exam. Many kids that received a 5 on the BC calc exam are placed into the 2nd quarter of honors first year calc.</p>
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Many kids that received a 5 on the BC calc exam are placed into the 2nd quarter of honors first year calc.
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</p>
<p>That's reasonable, given that BC Calc is 2/3 of a one-year college introductory Calc sequence. When my S signed up for Math 21 (the chug and plug version of MV Calc) he was told he did not need to take the placement test; his BC score was enough. Had he wanted to take honors Calc (23, 25 or 55), which he could not do through the Extension School, he probably would have had to take a placement test.</p>
<p>Different colleges seem to treat chemistry and biology quite differently. Although all accept Physics C, some grant full credit for Bio but not Chemistry, and others grant full credit for Chemistry but not Bio. Harvard is peculiar in granting credit for Bio for the purposes of receiving Advanced Standing, but prospective Bio majors must take Biological Sciences 50a&b, an introductory course, anyway. Not sure what the rationale is.</p>
<p>I have two perspectives on the Calc in college vs calc in high school argument. 1st, my son got a 5 on the Calc BC and then went off to MIT. 2nd, I just took a course on how to teach AP calc (AB) for current math teachers.</p>
<p>More than half of college students take calc AB or BC in the high school The vast majority of colleges grant at least one quarter of placement for them. After taking the teacher-prep course from one of the AP graders, hearing what the grading standards are, and comparing the questions to those of the MIT first-semester calc course (18.01), I think the AP calculus course, and the freshman calculus course at most colleges, represent what I think of as "calculus lite." Very little detail, a lot of rote memorization, not a lot of theory.</p>
<p>MIT, OTOH, has a freshman class of well-qualified math students. They have various placement options for calculus based on the AP scores. Many students choose to repeat some portion of calculus in any case, because the learning is so essential to everything that comes later. Overlearning is never a problem; underlearning often is.</p>
<p>I agree with your characterization. In fact, the whole AP program could be so characterized. Lots of memorization, not much analysis or theory. But I suspect that the vast majority of introductory college courses in the same subjects are not that different either. Any class that has to cover the whole of US history in 2 semesters (or European history, or world history) is bound to be one mile wide and one inch deep. Just because the students are 18 instead of 17, the curriculum is not dramatically different as long as the description is similar.</p>
<p>"...the whole AP program could be so characterized. Lots of memorization, not much analysis or theory..."</p>
<p>This is an interesting observation, and I don't question that this is many people's experience, but it's 180 degrees off from what my son experienced in his high school AP classes, especially the social studies courses: US and European history, government and econ. The vast majority of their time was spent preparing for the DBQ's by reading, analyzing, and synthesizing vast amounts of disparate documents and then writing essays. They read and studied the text on their own and spent class time digging through documents and writing. It was primarily analysis. The school has an excellent track record for getting their kids to score in the 4-5 range on the tests, but more importantly, what my son discovered was that the facts he'd learned in his AP social studies classes were mostly irrelevant to further study in college, but the discipline he'd developed from all that analysis and writing helped him tremendously in all of his non-technical classes in college. Maybe this is just an example of the inconsistencies in AP teaching?</p>
<p>1down2togo: I'm curious if the UC people meant to include "approved" honors courses (the ones UC weights) as well as community college courses in the "17 semesters" they were referring to. Because although 17 semesters of "AP" courses would be hard to accomplish at my kids' school (AP Physics was canceled for this year because not enough kids signed up) if you include honors and community college courses 17 is not that far off the mark for a top student: one or two as a sophomore, three each year as a Junior/Senior, throw in a summer course and you're there. That's not a particularly unusual course load for a kid who wants to go to Berkeley or UCLA.</p>
<p>Re honors, no, kluge, but that's a good question. Honors plays a very tiny role in our area. Classes are either regular curriculum or they are AP. There are only 2 UC approved honors classes at the high school where my children went. The subject of honors classes never came up at the session and in fact there is very little interest in honors classes either among parents or students. I think that could be because if it is difficult to monitor the quality of AP classes, it is nearly impossible to do it with honors classes.</p>
<p>Re community college, sure, they didn't specifically state this during this point of the program, but community college courses were brought up at various points and it was understood that they were just as good to have on the transcript as AP.</p>
<p>Maybe the issue of 17 APs is peculiar to the UC system which has a dual enrolment sytem? Our school offers about 12 APs altogether, (Calc AB & BC, Chemistry, Physics, Biology, AP-USH, AP-Euro, AP AmLit, AP English Language, Ap-Spanish, AP-French, Ap-Comp Sci.). These are APs for which credit is most likely to be granted by colleges.</p>
<p>As for the quality of AP humanities courses, it must vary from teacher to teacher, just like colleges and college classes do. There are indeed teachers who spend a lot of time on the DBQ (My S's teacher did so, and less on discussing important dates, which may not have been so great for the exam). But one widespread criticism by college profs is the general shallowness of the AP curriculum. As I said in an earlier post, though, a similar criticism could be levelled at many introductory college classes.</p>
<p>"That's reasonable, given that BC Calc is 2/3 of a one-year college introductory Calc sequence. "</p>
<p>marite, this may be true at MIT, but it is not true everywhere. And, it depends on the content of the first year course, not to mention the prep of the students going in. </p>
<p>Some calc sequences are highly theoretical, suitable mostly for math majors. Budding physicists have different needs, perhaps geared more toward linear algebra and multivariate calculus. Engineers need more exposure to other methods. You just cannot generalize so readily. The placement that works for one kid may not work for someone with a different educational goal, even with similar backgrounds.</p>
<p>Maybe I'm parochial. I'm looking at the Harvard math handbook. There seems to be only one flavor of Calc, but different flavors of MV Calc and LA. Even Math 21a&b, which I described earlier as plug and chug, had special sections for physics, chemistry, biology and economics majors. For prospective math majors there are more theroretical math courses available (23, 25,55).</p>
<p>As for the description on BC Calc being 2/3 of a Calc 1&2 sequence, I go by the description by AP Calc teachers, many of whom also teach at community colleges. As well, as Wisteria reminded us, the AP curricula and exams are designed by both college profs and high school teachers. In fact, Dan Kennedy (of the Finney, Demana, Waits, Kennedy textbook) was the first high school teacher to chair the AP Calculus committee. He was chair when the CB revised the curriculum to allow the use of calculators. Before him, every chair had been a college prof.</p>
<p>perhaps the adcom was being realistic in the "context" of your HS. If many kids at your HS take 9 ap classes, then that is the de facto strength of schedule component, and earns the "most rigorous" check-off on the GC eval. At our HS, however, it would be virtually impossible to complete 9 ap's, since the curriculum design doesn't allow any ap's until Jr year, and then only 2 (science and history), unless a student is advanced in math and can take Calc earlier than senior year, or the student doubles in history/science.</p>
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I think the exams were deliberately written in such a way that students were not expected to do perfectly on them.
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I agree. I look at the exams as measuring whether or not the students knows a particular quantity of "stuff" about the subject. But the exact "stuff" covered is going to vary from course to course. AP course guidelines are just that, guidelines. They do not spell out exactly which pages in a particular textbook to cover. Teachers get a fair amount of leeway to make selections.
Let's assume 2 students know everything they learned in 2 different AP US history courses. Both courses were rigorous and comprehensive. But only half the factoids covered overlapped. The other half differed. Maybe one class studied Pocahontas and the other studied Sacajawea. The cut-off for a 5 means that both students can miss the questions covered in the other course but not their own, and still make a 5.</p>
<p>Shouldn't students know about both Pocohontas and Sacajawea? I know that is just an example. However, US History course ought to cover most of the material on the AP exam. After all, the exam doesn't ask when Jane Adams was born, although the student should have some awareness of what Hull House was and its significance. </p>
<p>I'll stick with my proposal for a score of 90% for a 5, 80% for a 4 and 70% for a 3. That would still allow students to get a passing grade even if their course didn't cover exactly the same material as another course. The AP designation should mean something more than "knows a little about the subject." My truly dreadful high school history course was taught by the stereotypical basketball coach who showed movies of the Indy 500 to "entertain" us while he was out of the classroom working on team matters. (Can you imagine spending several consecutive days of watching cars zip around race tracks? The movie about open heart surgery was more entertaining because the tough guy in the class passed out cold when the surgeon made the incision.) Even then, we covered at least 67% of the material on the AP US History exam. Raising the standards for AP exams, as well as classes, would put some credibility back into the AP program.</p>
<p>EllenF:
As I said, I made no comment on the difficulty of the AP curriculum or exam in any particular subject, merely about the idea that in order to get an A a student should have 90% correct answers, without regard to how the exam was structured in the first place or the grading practices that were followed. </p>
<p>I am personally used to the French grading system, whereby getting 15/20 is cause for great rejoicing. When one of my classmates moved to the US in 9th grade and reported that she had gotten a 65 on her first history test, we all were very impressed: 11/20? She got it made. We were stunned to learn it was a failing grade.
For the life of me, I still cannot understand how students can graduate from high school with a 4.0 GPA (let along higher GPAs), even though I've had two kids grown up in the system.</p>
<p>I have no insight on how CB intended to structure the AP exams. However, I do know that none of the questions are particularly difficult for a person who has done well in an entry level college course, with which AP courses are equated. If the questions required significant brainpower, e.g. USAMO problems, I would feel differently.</p>