Yale is Imploding over a Halloween Email

Parents Forum
821

One could say the exact same thing to the Yale students complaining about the fact they were “constrained” and “infantilized” by the first email asking them to give some thought to civility and consideration for others when deciding on one’s Halloween choice and offering some guidance.

One can also say “life is unfair” and “deal with it” to those very students as they’re likely to face many more instances of these types of reminders/guidelines/instructions which may, rightly or wrongly, be perceived as “infantilizing”, constraining, or even micromanaging in many areas of their post-college life such as the workplace.

And unlike what happened with those students and EC, if anyone in many workplaces…including some of the ones I’ve worked in complained about such instructions along those lines, supervisors/higher management aren’t likely to react very well.

If anything, that’s much more likely prompt supervisors/management to give them a dressing down by among other things…accusing them of “whining” or failing to be a “team player”. And if they persist, they’d be inclined to put that complainant on their s&&tlist and give them far less margin from layoffs/termination, especially if he/she commits a transgression which an employee who hasn’t complained in such a manner normally be given a second chance/benefit of the doubt.

Incidentally, while cursing someone out is rude and unwise for future professional prospects, it still is essentially an exercise of her free speech rights. Even if it was done in front of LEOs in arrest situations as the following court rulings have found:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/06/cursing-at-a-cop-is-legal.html#

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/court-first-amendment-protects-profanity-against-police/

In that context, I find it ironic that at least one poster defends the Christakis’ right to free speech without negative consequences when it is inapplicable as Yale is a private institution and not an arm of the government and her “speech” calls into question about her ability to do her job as house master…part of which is to serve as supportive academic and to some extent positive personal influence for all the residential college’s students…not just those she seems to favor and yet, feel the other party should face the full wrath of negative consequences for acting similarly with far less institutional responsibilities, power, and consequential influence.

House Master who is a representative of the Yale administration and who is separately a tenured Professor/spouse of said Prof versus an undergraduate? IMO, only the extremely obtuse would view them as remotely equivalent or that the student has the greater onus in that context.

822

I found the article cited by @alh in #746 extremely interesting.

I was an English major at Wellesley in the 70s. Our classes were generally small–virtually always under 20, and often more like 13-15–and focused on discussion, not lecture. The professors were adept at fostering and managing discussion. Everyone was expected to contribute, especially in the more advanced classes inhabited by majors. There were very few men in our classes: the occasional 12-College Exchange guy, or a cross-registrant from MIT.

When I went to grad school at the U of C a couple of years later, I was stunned by the sexism of the department. There was ONE female professor. Many of the female grad students almost never spoke in class. Most of those who did were systematically downgraded. The masters class was 50/50 M/F when it entered. The PhD class was 5/1 M/F. And not because the women were dumb or distracted. The masters’ exam was the only thing we did that was graded anonymously. People were stunned when many of the class golden boys got Bs and many, many female students who had been routinely downgraded got As.

It is depressing to hear that so many of the intelligent women at Yale are still afraid to speak up, lest the boys not like them. It is noteworthy that the women interviewed who went to an all-female prep school have little or no need to hide in class.

This is a perfect illustration of why women’s colleges remain relevant.

823

Why do you question her motives alh?

Al2: I thought Hunt’s point was that the subtle racisim being highlighted is related, in part,to some majority students believing students of color got in due to AA and thus are not as “worthy” as other Yale students. That attitude certainly is seen in CC posts. The other recent blow up was at Missou, not at all the same as Yale?

As for sports teams, it is precisely because they are teams which require everyone to work together to win. Working with people that are different than you can certainly lead to positive bonds. Certainly at Missou the team stuck together. Not sure how that works in the off-season. And of course the privilege afforded to certain sports teams on many campuses brings a different set of exclusionary issues.

824

In debating all this I have to wonder what discrimination Did this young lady she face in her lifetime? Has she been called names, has she been excluded from classes or sports teams based on race and the like. Did she have the same opportunities? Im not saying she has not experienced racism but i do wonder to what extent? Is it her pain? Is it her friends pain? Is it her ancestors pain? I am white so i can not say what it is like to be african american. I think we all know african american young males in particular are under more scrutiny with police which is most certainly unjust. However the world and our nation have and still does terrible things to people but it has not only been limited to races of color. I remember growing up jokes about the polish, the irish and what have you. History tells us that many irish were brought here as indentured slaves. Im not trying to minimize injustices of the past against minorities but trying to point out that other factions have been discrimated against as well.

I guess what gets me is life is unfair its just that way. We dont live in a perfect world. Yes there are racists and it is abhorant but it is not only whites who are racist. Maybe in yesteryear an african american would not call a white the word cracker but i have definitely heard it. I have seen videos of whites being viciously attacked by other races and no one is screaming hate crimes. Then there is the white privledge remarks that i think many think are a microagression. We are supposed to feel guilty for merely our skin color. I think this is where some of the problem comes in. Yes racism goes both ways not all whites are racist and not all african americans are not racist. We all experience pain in life. We all have pain in our family histories it just may not be evident by our skin tone. Years ago having a family member in a mental institution was a no no and kept secretive. Bullied kids whose life was tormented throughout school crosses all socioeconomic and racial boundaries. Bullied kids attend school each day in real fear. Fearful of getting slugged, berated, ridiculed where they are completely isolated from their peers with few if any who will stand up for them.

I somehow think fear of one potential costume being insensitive is an overreaction In the scheme of things. There are many scared young people. We got our young men being thrown out of college with only a mere allegation of rape and no due process, we have cops using tasors and batons for a noise complaint down at U of alabama, and millions of students worrying about how they will pay off their student loans. In the context of the world we have beheadings taking place daily over ideologies, sex trade alive and well even in this country and it goes on and on.

I am not implying this female student or students at yale or anywhere else have not been subjected to injustices i just want to make that clear. I am also not trying to minimize racial injustices. However, as of late it seems like everyone is under intense scrutiny for anything they say or do even those who are well intentioned and by no means mean harm.

825

It is not about right to free speech. You are right in that speech is protected from the government shutting it down. “Free speech” does not mean you do not have to face consequences of what you said. If someone says something I do not like on the radio, for instance, I can turn the channel. If someone applies for a job and I know that this person acts like a 2 year old when she does not get her way, I have to right to choose to hire someone else. I think the women of Yale are stronger and better than this. To get into Yale, you have to be smart, well-rounded, and you must show that you have that something extra to get in. It is a privilege to attend a school like this for each and every student. If I was a student here, I would be embarrassed. Once again, get over it. People are mean. Bosses are unfair. People have much more on their plate in this country and world than to pitch a fit over Halloween. People have cancer, they have bills they cannot pay, they have parents who have Alzheimer’s, they have circumstances that truly are sad so losing your cool over a somewhat innocuous email is not worth it.

826

It’s more likely nowadays, but it didn’t seem that way from what I’ve heard from HS classmates who attended Y in the '90s or before or moreso, a college classmate whose experience with having her neo-hippie values, style, and political leanings treated dismissively by other fellow Y ASD students and their families were such that was the last straw which prompted her to stand up to her parents and starkly tell them, she’s not attending Yale as spending 4 years surrounded by such students would be the complete opposite of how she wanted to spend her college years.

Especially when she grew up in a suburb full of upper/upper-middle class mostly White conservative preppy neighbors and desired a campus where she’d be at least respected for her neo-hippieness…not disrespected and subjected to casual snide comments from the very same types of people she was forced to live and attend K-12 with in her well-off suburban hometown.

Similarly, marginalized groups like URMs don’t need to learn more about perspectives from the more mainstream/status quo perspectives.

They can’t help, but learn about it as by the very nature of their being mainstream and status quo it’s so normalized in nearly every part of mainstream American life that they can’t help but learn about it during their normative years unless they grew up in an extremely isolated enclave such as a close off religious commune practically cut off from those perspectives from the mass media, town, schools, etc. In fact, with the exception of those who live in those extremely isolated enclaves, those mainstream/status quo perspectives are practically drummed into their heads on a daily basis.

827

The female grad students who didn’t speak up in class were acting rationally-- speaking up got them systematically downgraded. Speaking up didn’t work for them. Why do we think that speaking up will work for the intelligent women at Yale?

It’s true that the female grad students who spoke up helped later generations of female grad students. But they didn’t help themselves. They were downgraded. The intelligent women at Yale may be making the same calculation: speaking up will help their little sisters, maybe, but it will hurt them.

I admire people who sacrifice their own self-interest to help those who come after them. But it’s hard to demand that everyone do that.

I wish I didn’t see so many promising, talented young women on CC reflexively dismiss women’s colleges. Then again, I was one of those young women, so I’m in no position to criticize.

828

Cobrat, I try not to do this to you, but in this case, you don’t know what you are talking about, and I do. Sorry about that.

My daughter, who goes to Yale right now, says she has not experienced sexism in the classroom, although there are some (older) professors who have a reputation for favoring men. She hasn’t taken their classes. There are still quite a few departments that are heavily white, male, and old. That continues to be an institutional problem, but is a different issue. My wife, who graduated from Yale in '82, also reports that she didn’t experience sexism in the classroom at Yale–she didn’t really have that experience until she went to med school, at a different institution.

Interestingly, when I asked my daughter about sexist things at Yale now, the primary example she pointed to was the Greek system, which barely existed when I was there.

829

Maybe I just have an exceptionally good marriage, but in my house Spouse 1 would be profusely apologetic (and more careful both about closing the door and about going ballistic over trivial stuff) and Spouse 2 would, nevertheless, also pay more attention to closing the refrigerator door because, clearly, it was upsetting to Spouse 1 and, after all, Spouse 2 has no real interest in leaving the door open. It’s just carelessness when it happens. Attentiveness to refrigerator door closing on both Spice’s parts would wear off after a couple weeks unless one or the other diagnosed why the door kept getting left open and/one developed a system for making proper door-closing more automatic

830

Those aren’t my perspectives, but those from people I knew who attended Y in the '90s or before and one college classmate who turned down an admission offer to attend Y because she was turned off by what she experienced from fellow ASD classmates and their families when she went to her ASD and found what she experienced showed Y wasn’t a very liberal place back then.

If you want to dismiss their experiences, that’s your business. I’m just a messenger conveying their experiences which don’t happen to accord with yours.

831

@woodlandsmom, I get the point you are making; in the scheme of “choosing your battles,” a battle over Halloween costumes seems like a silly one.

On the other hand, college-aged people, even college seniors aged 21-22, are still very young adults, and are generally more idealized and impractical than we more experienced, seasoned adults. Have you ever, in your work place, worked with brand, spanking new kids out of college? They usually need a LOT of real world training. The smart ones figure it out and look back on their college attitudes and passions and smile a little bit at their youthful indiscretions.

So, I forgive this young woman for what I think of as an inappropriate outburst. We don’t know what pressures or personal situations led her to act this way.

This Yale situation is kind of sad to me. It represents to me an unnecessary escalation of an issue that could have been handled by both parties so much better. The C’s could have noticed what was apparently a very emotional reaction to the EC email, gathered their students, and handled it a bit more sensitively rather than engaging in a loud debate with the crowd in the courtyard. After her unfortunate outburst, the young woman could have issued an apology along the lines of, “I stand by my beliefs on this, but I acknowledge that it was inappropriate to scream obscenities as I did.”

President Obama recently commented on his belief that college campuses should not be coddling students and that all beliefs should be welcome at universities. If both parties in this Yale incident could have calmly acknowledged each others’ positions, maybe they could have come to a productive resolution and had an Obama-esque “beer summit” over the whole thing.

Yale should be the shining example of how to handle this sort of thing, not the butt of the joke. Missed opportunity.

832

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833

This is hilarious.

My H has a broad streak of self-righteousness. Several decades ago, we shared a communal checkbook, but we each had our own ATM cards. H was insistent that every $50 we drew from the ATM had to be written down in said checkbook. I didn’t care. (Our balance was always such that a $50 withdrawal wasn’t going to result in a bounced check or anything.)

One month, H was perusing the statement, and discovered an ATM withdrawal that wasn’t recorded. Making a big fuss, and exclaiming “I just don’t know how these things don’t get written down!” he went so far as to call the bank and find out which ATM card had made the withdrawal. You guessed it: it was him. >:)

Ever since, when he gets on his high horse about such things, I say, “I just don’t know how these things don’t get written down!” :smiley:

834

Well, cobrat, perhaps you should be more careful about repeating nonsensical hearsay like this, including from a person who didn’t even go to Yale. As others have also said, you sure know a lot of people who tell you a lot of details about their lives–it strains credibility. Haven’t you noticed the reaction you get when you repeatedly do this?

835

@woodlandsmom

It’s ironic that what began as a debate over two conflicting e-mails between administrators of one of the most renowned universities in the world has now boiled down to a question of who has a right to be “obnoxious”, white people dressed in outrageous Halloween costumes or a black woman using the F-word in an argument, which by all accounts, 1) she did not initiate, 2) was with someone she knew and with whom there was a prior institutional relationship, and 3) in a place where she had a reasonable expectation of privacy?

As I stated many posts ago, this would not be news but for the fact that it happened at Yale.

836

Thinking folks have an equal amount of empowerment, or even wanting the same level of empowerment, is not the same as the reality of empowerment and who holds it. Just do a cursory review, say of women in STEM or tech fields, see: http://www.aauw.org/2015/04/14/women-shortchanged-in-stem/ or http://www.usnews.com/news/stem-solutions/articles/2014/03/26/study-women-heavily-discriminated-against-in-math-hiring or http://www.fastcompany.com/3046558/gender-discrimination-in-silicon-valley-is-bad-gender-discrimination-in-trucking-is-way-wors

837

It’s more revealing to look at the fridge door situation for marriages that are not so good. If one spouse blows up about the door, but after that they both resolve to do better and don’t have any big blowups, yeah, fine. But a more interesting analog is the fridge door in the context of a marriage where either one spouse believes they have existing grievances, or both spouses believe they have grievances.

The spouse may have been innocent of leaving the door open, but they still shouldn’t leave loaded guns around and let Caden play in traffic. They shouldn’t say, “Gotcha! I didn’t leave the door open, therefore your complaints about my child-rearing can be ignored.” Or maybe the complaining spouse is constantly blowing up about trivialities, and there is no underlying pattern of bad behavior, and the complaining spouse needs to lighten up about Caden wearing the wrong shoes to church. But either way, if one spouse blows up, it might be time to look at what’s going on in this marriage.

838

I certainly don’t want to be dismissive of anyone’s personal experiences, but I have to challenge the broad applicability of this statement - at least for the last 20 years or so.

  1. In college, women’s GPAs are higher than men’s. This is an indisputable fact, and pretty much holds at a school by school level. I believe it holds at a department by department level in the humanities. So even if they’re fearful of potential “downgrading”, it doesn’t seem to be actually occurring (unless you think women should be outperforming men by even more). Enrollments in most humanities skew heavily in favor of women.

  2. In English literature, almost 70% of the Ph.D’s currently granted are to women. I believe that women are over 50% of the new tenure track appointments in English, but I don’t have data on this to be able to quote the exact statistic.

  3. This is now just an anecdote, but it might give you some difference in perspective. When I was in high school and college, it was “common knowledge” among the male students that many English teachers favored women over men when it came to grading their papers. I am convinced it was true at my high school. I’m not going to be as adamant about college, but I suspect there was some truth to this as well.

For the most part, the strategy we adopted was to sit in the back of the class, do the expected amount of work, and just get the hell out of the department as soon as we could, accepting the fact that we were going to get at most a B no matter what we did. I know I certainly decided to “take my talents to South Beach”.

Is there sexism against women in academia? If you’re talking sciences and engineering, some social sciences, or philosophy - then that’s a very different story.

But English??? The data seem to show that, if anything, quite the opposite is occurring.

839

I am sorry @circuitrider I disagree. I did not know what the hoopla was about and I looked it up and saw this young woman put her back pack down walk towards the guy who was not yelling or doing anything aggressive and then she lost it. It was a public place even though the campus is private and it looked very aggressive to me. If I had been the guy in the video I would have felt threatened. Then, you had people spitting on attendees at a free speech conference. If you do this to a police officer you are going to jail for disorderly conduct. They do not pay those professors enough to put up with this stuff. The other students need to rise up and say to them…you have to right to your opinion but you do not have the right to rant and rave.

@prospect1 I do not think she will apologize because she probably does not think she did anything wrong. If she does, then I would be very glad. Yes, we all do stupid stuff when we are kids but some of us (namely my kids) have a mother who would yank her up by her ear and have a come to Jesus talk. That is southern speak for we would have a meeting where she either had to straighten up or come home.

840

"Those aren’t my perspectives, but those from people I knew who attended Y in the '90s or before and one college classmate who turned down an admission offer to attend Y because she was turned off by what she experienced from fellow ASD classmates and their families when she went to her ASD and found what she experienced showed Y wasn’t a very liberal place back then.

If you want to dismiss their experiences, that’s your business. I’m just a messenger conveying their experiences which don’t happen to accord with yours."

Well, ok, then. Hunt’s merely a Yale grad, married to another Yale grad, the parent of a recent Yale grad and the parent of a current Yale student. I’m sure he’s been on the campus many times in the last few years and his social circle and his kids’ social circles likely include lots of Yale grads. But you … You’ve actually talked to someone who attended Yale. Guess you’re more of an authority. I think I’ll stick with Hunt’s interpretations. (Clue-it ain’t because he’s white)

By the same token, I should pretend that I know more about being a black man in America than boolahi who has lived and continues to live it, because after all I’ve talked to a black person once.

Just stop it. Stop pretending that your HS friends and classmates offer you superior perspectives into things compared to the experiences of people on this board who live them.