Yale May Expand Enrollment as Levin Sees Ivy League Competition

Parents Forum
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<p>
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Levin is not talking about increasing the size of the faculty by 15%. His plan is to increase the size of the student body by 15%. To do that, he wants to build 2 new colleges. Otherwise, he plans on using the same resources, including faculty resources, to teach the larger number of students. That larger # of students is not going to be distributed evenly across disciplines. In the most popular fields, class size will probably increase by about 30% and it is ALREADY too big.

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jonri, where are you getting this information? As far as I am aware, Levin is planning to expand resources other than the residential colleges, including faculty. From the Bloomberg article:

[quote]
Levin said Yale may build two more residence halls and expand its faculty as a consequence of adding students.</p>

<p><code>This would actually allow us to increase the faculty because we would want to retain the small class sizes we have now,'' Levin said.</code>That could be useful in strengthening some of our departments in a strategic way,'' aiding research as well as teaching, he said.

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<p>Certainly sounds to me like there will be a faculty increase corresponding to the increase in students.</p>

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But if you cave into these demands, you will end up with a large number of unhappy students who wonder why they are paying $45,000 a year to sit in large lecture classes while classmates paying the same (or less) are in the Directed Studies Program and numerous seminars "capped" at 20 students or were able to major in architechture. (Do away with these programs, and many students and parents will conclude that junior should go to state U for a lot less $.)

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You really don't know much about Yale. Most Yale students, if they really wanted, could have the vast majority of their classes be seminars (perhaps not the specific seminars they want, but seminars nonetheless). Most large lecture classes at Yale (with the exception of required intro classes) are large because of the very fact that they are popular. Classes like the History of Modern China, and Constitutional Law are taught by extremely popular professors, who thereby draw large numbers of students. Many seminars are not filled to capacity, and students in these large lecture classes could, if they wanted, take seminars instead. Your point about Directed Studies shows your true lack of understanding of Yale. Every year, many students admitted to Directed Studies choose not to take it because it has a reputation of being too hard. Almost any students who really wants to take it can, if they are willing to be put on the waitlist, and then to pursue a spot in the program at the start of the year (I was in DS, and I know many people who were "rejected" from it, who still ended up taking it). If you really think that without these programs, students would go to state school instead, you really don't understand the phenomenon that is elite college admissions. There will always be huge numbers of very well qualified students willing to go to Harvard or Yale on the basis of prestige alone. That's not really a good reason (IMO), but it's true.

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Every year, there are kids who wish they could change their minds and go to a different college when they find out they did NOT get accepted into the Directed Studies Program for freshman year, for example.

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This is an absolutely ridiculous claim. I don't know anyone who went to Yale solely because of the chance that they would be in DS. And if anyone did care that much, they would have pursued their waitlist status with enough dedication that they would have gotten into DS. </p>

<p>Regardless, you have absolutely no basis for believing that class sizes will increase except speculation. You have no reason for believing that special programs will become more selective except for speculation. Basically, you have no basis for any of either of your posts except speculation. President Levin has said that Yale will increase its faculty to meet an increase in students, and I see no reason not to believe him. If Yale expands, it will be in order to provide many more students with the chance to get a Yale education, a pointless endeavor if the quality of education would be diluted at the same time. If Levin proposes an expansion plan that does not expand all of Yale's important resources, then there would be good reason to oppose it (and I will be among the strongest opponents). If your only reason for opposition is speculation and a misrepresentation of the actual state of affairs at Yale, then your opposition is groundless.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
A LOT of kids at Yale end up being annexed now. It could use another residential college just to create a situation in which nobody gets annexed.

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The one part of jonri's posts with which I agree. If this expansion takes place, I certainly hope that the increase in housing will be greater than the increase in students, allowing for both an increased enrollment (thereby offering a greater number of students the opportunity to go to Yale) and the elimination of annexing.</p>

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<p>I know LOTS of rejected DS candidates who were on the list and never got in. </p>

<p>I did say that I thought that one of the strengths of Yale was that currently it is possible for students to get into several seminars. But it is tougher in some fields. Here is an article from the YDN which talks about this issue:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/19565%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/19565&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>If you are in one of the popular majors, it can really be a problem. And if you want to take a seminar in popular subject outside your major, it can be even more of a problem.</p>

<p>I think the problem will be exacerbated if the student body is increased by 15%. We can agree to disagree as to its impact.</p>

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<p>I believe what Levin is doing is great. I think Yale should add the residential colleges....and increase the student body. I think Yale should and will add faculty as appropriate depending on emerging areas of interest etc. One of the things at Yale that I think is changing is there is more openness to studying abroad. As a result, they could see a decrease in the total number of kids on campus, as they increase total number of students. I think Middlebury began their "start in February" acceptance program to take advantage of the void from their study abroad students. Levin has really engaged China....in a true leadership/educational partnership. I think Yale can absorb 200 more kids in a heartbeat...and for any kid who wants to learn, get exposed to other kids who are working hard, this potential expanion is all good news. </p>

<p>My child is now a senior at Yale. The city is under constant construction... it is growing and blossoming right in front of our eyes. The old abandoned stadium is now gone....what a rusty eyesore that was... and while the city still lacks a few more hotels and I wish there was a bit less commercial truck traffic during drop off and pick up days, overall, New Haven is a pretty attractive location relative to NYC and major highways east, west and north. The residential college approach makes everyone feel part of a bigger place. Perhaps the new colleges will make it easier to handle the annexing situation....until 4 full years pass and the new colleges have graduated a group. </p>

<p>Certainly all of the increased competitiveness of the college app process these past years has resulted in more kids aiming higher. We had dinner for our son and a few of his friends the night before he returned to school. Two friends will graduate from Amherst and 1 from Princeton. They all worked hard this summer and are good sports about it. They are alive and thinking....and I am happy for all of them that they are making such interesting choices about their future. If I had the ability to leverage resources that are available to Levin, I too would be making similiar choices so more kids could contribute to a better world in the future.</p>

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<p>From the media coverage I've read and what I've heard directly from the mouths of various Yale officials, the two new colleges would help relieve overcrowding as well as adding new students. Everything I have read and heard indicate that the faculty size would increase and this would help Yale hire more of the best, deepening its undergraduate offerings.</p>

<p>On the study abroad front, there are a LOT of students taking advantage of summer programs (including classroom-based learning, volunteer programs, and pre-professional internships) and receiving great funding to participate. I don't see Yale ever having a ton of kids study abroad during the school year because people love the place so much, they can't bear to be away. </p>

<p>I think the addition of the two new colleges is a done deal, so those of us who are on CC for life can debate how it all turned out 10-15 years down the line.</p>

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<p>jonri, it's not just being on the waitlist, it's actively pursuing a spot in the program. Regardless, as a freshman last year, I knew a lot of other freshmen. I knew exactly one (1) who wasn't in DS and really wished he was (rather than sort of thinking it might have been cool). And he hadn't applied originally. He decided during first semester that he wished he had done it.
Your article about seminars doesn't really say that they are hard to get into in general. Rather, the popular ones are hard to get into. I'm most familiar with history (though I'm sure what I say is true in other fields as well, since history is possibly the most popular major at Yale), but I know of seminars that had fewer than 10 students enrolled. Sure they weren't the most popular ones, but a limited number of popular seminars is a very different problem than a limited number period (I certainly agree that Yale would be even better if every single class was generally considered excellent). I think the most telling quote in this regard from the article you linked is as follows:

[quote]
English major Stephanie Wu ’07 said it has been difficult for her to get into popular classes in a department with no preregistration system

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It's hard to get into popular seminars. I agree. It could become harder if enrollment expands (though I still want to know why you think that Yale won't expand the faculty as well, as Levin has certainly said that he would). This is somewhat problematic, but it certainly doesn't mean that students will end up stuck in large lecture classes. With the exception of intro classes in popular majors (and those will be large regardless of whether Yale expands), nearly every student in a large lecture class could, if they chose, have been in a small lecture or a seminar.
But, as I said before, regardless of what problems would occur if Yale expanded its student body without expanding other resources, there is no reason to believe that is what will happen.</p>

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<p>Maybe Directed Studies has gotten supergreat in the past generation; in mine it was OK-and-interesting-but-no-biggie. My wife and I both did DS, we both liked it, but neither of us would say our experience at Yale would have been poorer without it. It was nice to have a bunch of small classes and to have many of the same classmates in them. The faculty were nice, but many were second-rate by Yale standards. Some classes were better than others. I certainly never met anyone who wished he or she could have gone elsewhere because of not being accepted into DS, and if I did meet such a person I would think he or she had a poor grip on reality.</p>

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<p>Well, on Yale Class Day, an award is given for the best teachers at Yale and in at least a couple of cases, that award went to teachers in DS. (Levin's wife being one such awardee.) And,due to demand, the size of the program has been doubled since you were in it. Moreover, it has, unfortunately, turned into a bit of a feeder for some limited majors, which more savvy kids know.</p>

<p>And flute is quoting selectively from the article. Its not just "popular" seminars; its many seminars and the situation is particularly dire in the poli sci department. I admit I didn't know about the use of the pre-reg system that started in January. In the past it was very,very common for poli sci majors to get frozen out of all seminars, and it looks as if things have only a bit since the article says you may be unable to pre-register for any. </p>

<p>Econ deals with it by barring all but folks who MUST take econ seminars as part of their major from taking econ seminars. </p>

<p>Gaming the system is common unless things have changed dramatically in the last couple of years. Some sophs just outright lie and say they are juniors to get into seminars; others used to use APs to accelerate to get into them and then deaccelerate later. Math majors declare themselves math and econ majors to take econ seminars and then change to pure math majors, etc. </p>

<p>And, no, I don't think Levin is going to increase the size of the faculty in the hardest hit departments by 30%. Moreover, you can increase the student body by 15% overnight, but it's just not feasible to grow your faculty overnight like that. That's been the excuse in the poli sci department for a long time--that the increase in the percentage of Yalies majoring in poli sci increased more rapidly than faculty could be hired. </p>

<p>I'll believe Levin if the faculty hiring process begins at the same time as the construction does.</p>

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<p>Jonri, if it's so hard to get into Polisci seminars, why, when searching courses online, can I find so many that had many fewer than 18 students? (judging from number responding to the numerical course evaluation questions, which must be filled out in order to receive one's grade. You can decline to answer questions, but when only 5 people respond to the questions that are numerical only - that is, they don't require a written response - while in other seminars 15 do, I think it's fair to assume that the seminar with only 5 respondents was not full). Judging from looking at DS evaluations, a full seminar (18 students) will generally have 14-15 responses. In the Polisci department, looking only at fall semester courses, I found 8 courses with 10 or fewer responses, 3 more with only 11, and one with only 12 (and this is only from courses offered this Fall that have been offered previously, many seminars this fall had never been offered before, implying that some seminars have been discontinued or are not being taught this year, among which are probably some with less than full enrollment). Admittedly, many seminars had 15 or 16 responses, implying that they were full, but plenty weren't. Seems to me that only the popular seminars fill up. The failure of some majors to be able to pre-register is probably due to all 4 of their chosen courses being among the popular ones. The bigger complaint seemed to be the chaos of the system, not that there aren't enough seminars.</p>

<p>I really don't see why you think some departments will grow far more than the campus as a whole. Sure, Polisci is a more popular major than Classics, but why would it be more popular among the extra 200 students per year who would attend under the Levin plan than it is among the 1300 students per year who currently attend? I agree that you can't grow faculty 15% overnight (though, incidentally, the 15% growth in student population would be over 4 years, as it takes 4 years to get 4 full larger classes). But you are criticizing the expansion without any knowledge of how Levin plans to grow the faculty. All you have offered is speculation.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Maybe Directed Studies has gotten supergreat in the past generation; in mine it was OK-and-interesting-but-no-biggie. My wife and I both did DS, we both liked it, but neither of us would say our experience at Yale would have been poorer without it. It was nice to have a bunch of small classes and to have many of the same classmates in them. The faculty were nice, but many were second-rate by Yale standards. Some classes were better than others. I certainly never met anyone who wished he or she could have gone elsewhere because of not being accepted into DS, and if I did meet such a person I would think he or she had a poor grip on reality.

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<p>I agree entirely. I was in DS last year, and while I had a couple of really terrific professors, I also had a couple who really weren't very good. I liked the program, but that was in large part because I liked the material. I knew far more DSers who wished they hadn't done it (a good deal dropped it after 1st semester, not because it was a bad program, but because they decided they weren't really that interested in the material, or they disliked the restriction to their course schedules) than non-DSers who wished they had been in it (as I said, I knew exactly 1).</p>

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<p>An article from today's YDN on the two proposed new colleges:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/21168%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/21168&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I hadn't heard the idea of creating a freshman quad for the new colleges before.</p>

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<p>I have no axe to grind about Yale expanding. They certainly have the money to increase resources to provide a great experience to an enlarged student body. It's a big move, and I assume it has been discussed endlessly by faculty, alums, and trustees.</p>

<p>I'm just curious why they have this set of limited enrollment special programs? It seems they would be good for any student, and those who have made it into Yale all seem to be qualified. Several of them don't appear to require so much in space or faculty attention that limited enrollment is necessary. </p>

<p>So what's the point of competitive limited admissions? And why only let people know if they are in after they have committed to Yale? Anyone understand the rationale? Is the goal to get the competitive juices flowing before people hit campus?</p>

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<p>I could hardly care less about enrollment trends at Yale, but it does occur to me that the posters who feel that a 15% increase in enrollment would be a tragedy of classic Greek proportions might consider the manifest benefits to be gained from a 15, 25, or even 50% decrease. If more is bad, fewer must be better, right?</p>

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<p>First, you can't judge poli sci by DS response rates. (My understanding is that in poli sci, the rate of response second semester last year averaged about 50%. ) I really do not think you can extrapolate the size of a particular seminar by the # of responses. </p>

<p>I would not think it would be a terrible decision to increase class size by 15% if eveything else were in place to deal with those extra students before they arrived on campus . You can consider my remarks speculation, but I think my odds of winning the lottery are better than the odds that Yale will increase resources in all fields simultaneously with the increase in students. It's just not that easy to increase the faculty by 15% overall in the space of 4 years. And, I do think that it's unlikely that the increased #s of students will be evenly distributed among all departments. It did not happen when Brown increased the # of students. It did not happen when UChicago increased the # of students. Why do you think Yale will be different?</p>

<p>And, no I do not think smaller is necessarily better. Cut the faculty in a field like history by 15% and you are going to hurt the type of course offerings. Most historians focus on the history of a particular nation, time period, or type of history. Only a good size department will be able to offer courses in many different historical specialities, for example.</p>

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<p>Yale Daily News article "Ivies plan for future growth" on Ivy competition and plans for undergraduate expansion:</p>

<p>
[quote]
With admission rates to the country’s most selective universities at record lows, the idea of expanding the size of undergraduate populations has begun to garner public attention... </p>

<p>Yale and Princeton officials say the resources and faculties of the schools are such that the universities are poised to make greater contributions to society by admitting more students. With significantly smaller student bodies than Columbia and Harvard, Yale and Princeton currently have more money and square feet of building space per student, and the universities’ administrators, faculty and alumni have begun to push for increasing the availability of those resources...</p>

<p>Yale administrators have repeatedly said that many more students could benefit from a Yale education, and Levin said Yale’s hyper-selectivity forces the University to reject too many qualified applicants.</p>

<p>The last time Princeton and Yale increased their undergraduate populations was when they went co-educational in 1969. Now, Princeton is increasing its ranks by 500, adding slowly to each class with the plan to reach its target class size in 2012. Yale is considering an increase of between 400 and 800 students, tied to the construction of two new residential colleges.</p>

<p>Psychiatry professor and former Calhoun College master William Sledge, who is chairing the committee evaluating the effects of an expansion on student life, said a delicate balance must be struck when increasing the size of the College.</p>

<p>“What we don’t want to do is disrupt the balance of the culture,” he said...

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</p>

<p><a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/21013%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/21013&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p><a href="jonri%20wrote:">quote</a></p>

<p>In the real world

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<p>Are you aware that the real world of 2007 already includes several of the things described in post #17?</p>

<p>For instance, the mychances.net (statistical admissions prediction) site claims data on 466 applicants to Yale. Ten years of data from now, the participation rate, the amount of information, and the statistical techniques will have improved. As of today they claim 75 percent accuracy for a rough model with limited data. Other such sites and data sources exist, including the College Confidential results threads.</p>

<p>Matching systems already are in use (Questbridge being the first, and having placed hundreds of students already; Yale is now one of their match schools). If early admissions dies at the top schools, there will only be more pressure to replace it with something fair but retaining the efficiency.</p>

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<p>Princeton and now Stanford on future plans to expand enrollment:</p>

<p>"Princeton seeks more students, more diversity"</p>

<p><a href="http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newjersey/ny-bc-nj--princetonexpansio0914sep14,0,239354.story%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newjersey/ny-bc-nj--princetonexpansio0914sep14,0,239354.story&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Stanford Alumni Magazine President's Column "Should Stanford Expand the Freshman Class? Historically low acceptance rates leave many deserving students out." by John Hennessy.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/2007/sepoct/columns/prez.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/2007/sepoct/columns/prez.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>