<p>Oldfort - No, all I am saying is that going to an elite school is not the “winning lottery ticket” that many people make it out to be. I have no problem if you are able to go to one of these schools (my kid goes to a highly-ranked liberal arts school), but a very smart and talented kid can go to any one of a number of schools around the country and do just as well as his compatriot who went to the elite school. Your experience at any school will be defined much more by what you put into it than by the so-called “prestige” of the school. Also, the kid at the elite school is not superior in any of the ways I think are important than the kid at the less prestigious school.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>No, I think those very smart and talent kids could do even better at those elite schools. Those elite schools are wasted on average students. I won’t even say those very smart kids are most productive or happy people in the world. In my heart, I would rather if my kids were average/normal, there is a price to be paid to be “special.”</p>
<p>“I don’t know enough about USD to really say, but based on the scores and grades of its incoming freshmen, I would say that the non-honors classes at USD are likely to be significantly less challenging than similar classes at Yale because of the makeup of the student body.”</p>
<p>I am sure that’s true, which raises the question of what happens to the USD Honors students. Their SATs and grades seem to be as high as those of the average Yalie (and, given that it would seem they are more likely to be low-income, they may have been even more difficult to earn.) Doesn’t seem like any of us know much about their experience. We do now about the opportunities that top students at good state universities receive, and compared with what they might have received had they been middling students at a school like Yale, the gap if it exists is likely just not that great (and in not a few cases, might tilt away from the higher priced spread.) But we are all talking through our hats, as we just don’t know.</p>
<p>I for one assume that the educational quality at Yale is substantially higher. I also know that it costs substantially more and that, as described, it might be money that could otherwise be used for two years of medical school. That’s what makes the value proposition so interesting.</p>
<p>(By the way, anyone want to argue that a student at Yale would receive a better Catholic education? For many students, that’s a really big deal. Or for that matter, an LDS education. We have students here who regularly turn down HYP for BYU.)</p>
<p>(Anyone remember the poster here a couple of years ago who turned down Yale for Vandy?)</p>
<p>"My son is admitted to YALE, and will pay a substantial amout of money (~~$30000 per year), He also has a full ride to USD. "</p>
<p>You would think Yale would be eager to pry a top student away from the University of South Dakota.</p>
<p>^^^there are enough top students like OP’s son who would be happy to pay full fare to Yale. It is San Diego, not South Dakota.</p>
<p>Not sure where people are getting the idea that one difference between Yale and USD would be that there are fewer rich kids at USD. USD is a very expensive private university, whose financial aid policies can’t come close to Yale’s. I would venture to guess that there are MORE rich kids at USD. But that doesn’t matter, does it?</p>
<p>I know two recent USD grads who are doing very well for themselves, exceptionally well in their careers. Neither of them could have gone to Yale.</p>
<p>If you can swing it financially, Yale would be hard to pass up. But if that causes financial hardship, your S will do just fine at USD. </p>
<p>Keep in mind that a large number of students who attend college in San Diego never leave. So you may never see your kiddo again. ;)</p>
<p>Regarding the Deresiewicz article, why is it that some of the worst critics of elite education have profited it from it tremendously themselves? Seems ungrateful to me, as he just got paid to lecture at Stanford this month, was employed by Yale, etc. I wonder if he ever spoke at USD?</p>
<p>“Not sure where people are getting the idea that one difference between Yale and USD would be that there are fewer rich kids at USD.”</p>
<p>Last number I saw said that USD had 25.7% of the student body on Pell Grants. That’s more than two-and-half-times the percentage at Yale. They talk a good game, but there just aren’t that many low-income students at Yale. (8.9% is the percentage I’ve seen.) They either don’t apply, don’t get accepted, or don’t attend.</p>
<p><a href=“http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/tag/yale/[/url]”>http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/tag/yale/</a></p>
<p>(There’s no prestige to be had in accepting low-income students.)</p>
<p>71% of entering students at USD receive financial aid. That’s MUCH higher than at Yale.</p>
<p>"It is San Diego, not South Dakota. "</p>
<p>I know, but it just bugs me when people write U of T, U of C, or USD, like everybody is a mind reader and is supposed to know which one, and like it’s so exhausting to write it out in the original post.</p>
<p>I didn’t know what USD was either. But this thread has been going on…It really doesn’t matter at this point, it could have been U. of Oregon. That’s where we draw the line between duck and swan.</p>
<p>mini, that does make sense. It is very difficult for a low income student to achieve the kind of grades and ec’s needed for admittance to Yale. Difficult for anyone of course, but especially for families who can’t afford tutors, music lessons, summer camps, SAT prep,etc. So we really have to admire those low income kids who actually get accepted to Yale and the like. What an amazing achievement.</p>
<p>Agreed. What is interesting, though, is that the Honors students at USD are statistically similar to Yalies, yet likely without the income level. (Which suggests that Yale and the others could have more highly qualified low-income students if they wanted - they just don’t want them. Hey, it’s their money, and they get to use it how they choose. In a study about four years ago, Gordon Winston at Williams found about four times as many high qualified low-income students - statistically similar to those attending - than were attending prestige private colleges. The good news is that the state schools, and schools like USD have noticed, and are working hard to provide excellent educations to these erstwhile “Yalies”.)</p>
<p>That article by Deresiewicz was discussed and critiqued here on CC and elsewhere. It was some time ago, but as I recall many people thought the article itself reeked of elitism. The author seems to be one of these clueless professors who is out of touch with life and now wants to blame his elite education for it. </p>
<p>Actually I found the thread. Here it is:</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/526528-disadvantages-elite-education.html?highlight=deresiewicz[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/526528-disadvantages-elite-education.html?highlight=deresiewicz</a></p>
<p>Worth reading that thread just to see nice observations from some unfortunately departed posters like marite.</p>
<p>coureur (not departed, just not on this thread) has a point:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Again, doing “better” is based on a subjective value judgment of what it means to do well in higher education. I am sure that some smart and talented kids could better meet their own needs at Yale, but this is not a universal fact.</p>
<p>Also - and I don’t expect this to be a popular opinion - I quite frankly don’t believe in the “specialness” of supposedly smart and talented kids. I personally had high grades, test scores, strong ECs, etc. and was admitted to highly-ranked schools. I have many acquaintances with high grades, test scores, strong ECs, etc. who were admitted to highly-ranked schools. And the cold reality is that I observe little to no difference in ability between this group of students and a still above-average but not Ivy-level group. I have found many of the “accomplishments” that supposedly make top students so special absurdly easy to achieve. If you ask me which kids will significantly change the world after growing up, I really couldn’t tell you. There may well be a difference between valedictorians and students who struggle to graduate at all. But when we are comparing fairly bright and college-bound kids I am unconvinced that any real difference exists.</p>
<p>Please don’t take this as an insult towards your children or others who attend Yale and other top schools. There are indeed many young people who are achieving truly remarkable things. But the reason these kids are so remarkable is precisely because they are so rare. No institution in the nation - with the possible exception of Deep Springs, of which I am ignorant - is small enough to enroll only IMO winners or TOC champions. And I am not aware of convincing evidence that even this select group is capable of reaching future goals beyond other students who bloom later.</p>
<p>I would bet all these posters who are extolling the virtues of Yale students have never had responsibility for hiring large numbers of people. You will see, that except for the first job out of school, the name of the school pales in comparison to the myriad of other characteristics and qualities that are so important to a successful hire. I don’t care how high your SAT scores are, if you can’t work well with other employees, a skill that correlates hardly at all with the name of your school, I will not be hiring you. I see quite a few Ivy League graduates who are socially awkward or as my son so eloquently puts it, socially ■■■■■■■■, that it pretty much ends the interview. Also, great intellect does not equate with common sense or “street smarts”. Ask most employers and see which one they value more. Generally, in the business world we value people who understand how to get things done. That requires a whole different set of skills from the ones you learned at HYP. Okay, what I really want are people who are smart, have common sense, and great interpersonal skills. Am I more likely to find that at Ivy League schools? I think you all know my answer.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>But I think it would be fair to say that the student at Exeter had a different educational environment than the average public high school can provide. My public school daughter went to a very strong program in high school. Then she got to Yale and was in classes with kids who had gone to the finest private schools in the country. She was shocked at the difference between what a good public school offered and what a top private school did. She felt like they had already had four years of college prior to getting to Yale. She certainly achieved well in the context of her high school, but the educational experience differs between the average public high school and the top private high schools. In the same way, I would imagine that not all colleges can or do provide the same experience which is why there are so many and why it’s important to pick the right one. The OP needs to consider both the finances and what will be the best fit for her son.</p>
<p>Gosh it seems crazy the way we give some schools (and their students) almost mythical status on CC. </p>
<p>Here’s a story that I think reflects reality rather than mythology. I attended the very tippy top university in my field for my PhD. In my cohort were students from a wide range of schools: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford…but also NU, Rochester, Texas A&M, Illinois College, Ohio State, Wilmette, U of Wisconsin at Eau Claire…just to name a few. We all came in with research experience, very high test scores, great GPAs…and you absolutely could not tell any of us apart in terms of our preparation for graduate school nor our performance in the 4-5 years we spent there. Those from the ‘elite’ as well as the ‘ordinary’ seemed about the same in terms of their abilities (be it writing, math, participation in seminars, creativity, work ethic, research). We were all pretty competent and comparable. Everyone graduated and took tenure track academic posts upon graduation. Now I look at where we ended up in terms of our reputation in our field and the schools we teach at as professors. Zero relationship with our undergrad. Kids from Ivies now teaching at directional campuses; kids from big state U at HYPs. It really didn’t matter. We were all bright kids and we would have flourished anywhere. I’m pretty sure we all enjoyed our undergraduate college days too. </p>
<p>I just really wish people would stop putting schools and their students on some kind of crazy pedestal.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Jeez. Y’all are having some kinda fun! I remember these threads from “back in the day”. </p>
<p>Couple of things I can add for the OP: </p>
<p>1) Where one goes to UG does impact med school admissions at the usual med school “suspects”. </p>
<p>2) What med school you go to does impact acceptance to some highly competitive residencies. </p>
<p>3) What med school you go to has a significant impact on a career in academic medicine. Pedigree is important. </p>
<p>4) Attending Yale and then any “decent” med school would not be very appealing to some med students depending on their career goals.</p>
<p>5) Not all med schools are the same, any more than all UG’s are the same. Although there is substantial uniformity in what is taught, there are differences in how it is taught, the learning environment in general, and the make-up of your classmates. </p>
<p>Now. As to the specific question asked
</p>
<p>(I am limiting my answer to pre-med students. I may well have a different opinion for other students on some of these.) </p>
<p>I guess that would depend entirely on how one defines “worth”. </p>
<p>For those who quantify the worth of a Yale education in terms of economic outcomes, it will rarely be worth it for a pre-med. </p>
<p>For those who quantify the “worth” of a Yale education as a “plus” in gaining acceptance to med school, well…it’s not gonna be worth it. Save your money. Don’t go to Yale.</p>
<p>For those who quantify “worth” in terms of the 4 year “experience” of Yale , and the long-term impact of those 4 years on the pre-med student, I’d say you have a good argument, and IMO, the only one worth making in favor of spending the $120K. </p>
<p>It’s a great situation for your kid to be in, OP. Many, many congratulations. </p>
<p>If you don’t want to search through my bazillion posts, P.M. me and I’ll give you the skinny about my D’s choices in a similar situation (and the family discussions that went on as she was making her choices).</p>
<p>If all your son wants to be is a doctor then go to USD.</p>
<p>Parent57, if there is little difference, why are you sending your own kid to CMcK?</p>