Yale Vs. Harvard

[nondescript1]

I know this kind of thread has been posted before, but I am really struggling mightily with this decision so any help is appreciated.

Yale was my dream school for a long time. It was the first school I visited (by accident actually). I did YYGS last summer and fell completely, head over heals, in love with the school. I am planning on majoring in molecular biophysics and biochemistry. Anyway, so I was in love with Yale, so I applied SCEA and was deferred. My heart broke, I felt betrayed (my application literally oozed affection), and I resolved to end my attachment to my most beloved university.

Harvard, as it would turn out, helped in this regard. I got a likely letter from them in early February and I began to try to envision myself there.

Now, come Ivy Day, I am accepted to both Yale and Harvard (and schools that didn’t show me the financial love). I almost wish I had been rejected to one, but now I must choose. Here are some of my thoughts for both, please PLEASE give me any thoughts you may have.

Yale: My first true love. I still find their campus to be breathtaking (gothic architecture is my favorite). I also love their residential college system and the general vibe on campus. They profess to be more undergraduate focused. I am concerned about their poor relations with the city of New Haven and Connecticut. I am also very concerned about the impending expansion of the college student body. I don’t want to get caught in a transitional period in which the school struggles to readjust itself to its increased student body. I am also wondering if this expansion will increase the student to faculty ratio and class sizes. The smaller nature of Yale is part of what attracted me.

Harvard: Is bigger, which concerns me. I am very VERY interested in undergraduate research, so I am a bit nervous about attending a school with such an emphasis on graduate education. Additionally, Harvard seems more formal whereas Yale seems more collegial. I don’t know how the Housing system compares to the Residential College system, but the RC system is great so I hope they work similarly. I am looking for a more collaborative than competitive environment, and Harvard seems perhaps a bit more competitive. Georgian style buildings aren’t really my thing, but whatever. That being said, Harvard reached out to me in my hour of need. Boston>New Haven. Then again, Yale is closer to NYC. Does Harvard have those nice little cultural things like master’s teas, etc?

Im going to part of Visitas and all of Bulldog Days and I generally know more about Yale than Harvard.
There will be people in my life disappointed either way, and honestly the paradox of choice is for real at this point.
Please help.

[gibby]

Congratulations – what wonderful choices! See post #4. I stand by everything I said several years ago: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/yale-university/1483765-choosing-yale-over-stanford-and-harvard-p1.html

No matter which school you choose, you have make a leap of faith. Some Administrators at Harvard are trying to make it more like Yale, but there’s been pushback from Harvardians. So, there are transitional issues at Harvard as well: http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2016/3/2/final-club-yale-model/

The big plus for Yale IMHO is the four year residential college system (as opposed to Harvard’s 3-year residential system, which really sucks for Harvard freshman as they are not included in house activities). I truly believe that Yale’s Administration will continue that inclusion with the introduction of the two new colleges.

FWIW: My son, who graduated last year from Yale, didn’t have any issues with the City of New Haven.

Enjoy Visitas and Bulldog Days! Let your gut tell you which institution feels like a home for the next four years!

[T26E4]

^ There’s no better advice than what Gibby just wrote. Congrats! Go Yale!

[nondescript1]

Thank you both very much for your input! I am looking forward to visiting them both. I really think that I’m more of a Yalie at heart, and I probably would have made my decision already had it not been for some Yale Daily News articles expressing concerns from faculty members and students over the 800 student expansion. I will go with whatever school feels like home during my visits.
@T26E4 I recognize your profile picture as the JE Coat of Arms. We stayed there for YYGS over the summer, what an absolutely amazing place!

[Memmsmom]

You will find that the biggest differences are in the student climate and how they treat you. Are you on your own or are you part of a whole? Are you one who is a solo artist or are you a team player? Harvard fosters being on your own and can have a very competitive feeling to it. Yale is very community based and is more social in its overall appeal. Those were some of the bigger points my daughter dealt with. She also loved the 4 years of belonging somewhere rather than only 3. You only get 4 years and at Yale you are welcome everywhere. You belong to a residential college family before you even move in. The kids in your freshman dorm are your family. But you are still welcome to eat in any of the dining halls, study in any of the RC libraries and use any of the rooms in the basements. Everyone is welcome. Harvard on the other hand has a separate freshman dining hall, freshman housing where you only see freshman and you spend one whole year a little separate from the rest of the classes. Some people will like this fact because it gives you a chance to acclimate and some feel it exclusionary. As her close friend that attends Harvard said,“What do you mean everyone is welcome at a Yale party?” - apparently at Harvard they are all invitation only. LOL
So far my daughter LOVES New Haven, she feels very secure there and her favorite part of walking on campus is hearing the bells. As for the expansion issue, she is only a freshman and so far 3 of the classes she has taken only had between 5 and 15 kids in it. This isn’t a single high school. It is a very large and experienced university. Im pretty sure they will be just fine with the growth.

[Anonymoose3]

@Memmsmom - I just wanted to let you know that you just convinced me not to chase after my Harvard waitlist when there’s an amazing school that loves me back.

[Memmsmom]

You will literally think you are at Hogwarts…LOL - My daughter was obsessed with Harvard for years but then once she really had to look into things for real she was sold on Yale as her favorite. That was VERY hard for her to admit too because she really wanted Boston or even just to get out of CT. But she would not trade her school for anything now. It really boils down to what kind of a person you are and want to be.

[proudparent26]

Harvard it is far and away a much better school for STEM than Yale. It is not even close. Lots of people see the Harvard freshman housing as a plus where you get to know a large group of the freshman class rather than a small group of people at your house

[gibby]

@proudparent26 wrote: Lots of people see the Harvard freshman housing as a plus

Yes, some do, however administrators are contemplating changing Harvard’s residential housing system to be more like Yale’s to improve the freshman experience at Harvard: http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2016/3/2/final-club-yale-model/

Discussions of Yale’s residential set-up have been particularly prevalent in the administration’s communications with members of Harvard’s non-affiliated single-gender social clubs.

He (Schachar ) also suggested randomizing students into their house before freshman move-in, similar to how students are put into Residential Colleges at Yale, and, introducing more social activities for freshmen.

[proudparent26]

@gibby I think you are misconstruing what was said. One individual has said that some of what Yale does may be good. That is it. Nothing more

Also I am sure you have been to Harvard numerous times. The freshman housing is around the yard and that is done for a reason. It is done so the freshman are closer to campus and feel more part of the community. I doubt seriously they are going to change any of the freshman houses into residential houses. Also as I am sure you are aware some of the freshman houses don’t house a lot of students nor do any of them have separate dining halls. So implementing the Yale system of housing is in reality a total physical impossibility. Personally I think the Harvard system of housing is far superior to Yales. At least with Harvard you get to make some choices and see different things.

Most people at Harvard think the housing is excellent

[gibby]

^^ That one person happens to be Harvard’s Associate Dean of Student Life, David R. Friedrich, who has “the ear” of Dean Khurana, so we’ll see what happens.

FWIW: Having one child graduate from Harvard and one from Yale, there are pluses and minuses to each residential house system, but I prefer Yale’s model. I wrote the below several years ago and I stand by every word of it.

Another difference between the schools is housing. Harvard’s residential college system is a three-year program that starts in a student’s sophomore year. Harvard freshman live, eat and socialize together in Harvard Yard, but they do not belong to a residential house overseen by a Master and Dean. As a result, there is a lot of opportunity for freshman to bond with other freshman, but little opportunity for Harvard freshman to bond with sophomores, juniors and seniors, unless they meet through an extracurricular activity or a class.

Yale’s residential college system is a four-year program. Yale freshman eat and socialize with sophomores, juniors and seniors in their residential college, so there’s much more of a “big-sib, little-sib” atmosphere to the entire school. As a freshman, you can sit down next to an upperclass student and start up a conversation over a meal, or you can attend one of your residential college’s events (ski trip, cruise, picnic, etc) and meet upperclass students. That just doesn’t happen for Harvard freshman.

For our family, the biggest difference between the schools has been the “social tone.”

The “social tone” of a college results from decisions, large and small, made by the administration on issues such as physical space and its use, housing, how freshman are welcomed and integrated into campus life, what role upperclass students play as advisors and mentors, what role graduate students play, how readily faculty members volunteer to host events or trips, etc.

For our family, the “social tone” can be best summed up as, “At Harvard, students are on their own. At Yale, students are all in it together.”

Let’s take move-in day, for example:

At Harvard, freshman move-in to their dorms on the first day the campus opens to students. The majority of sophomores, juniors and seniors move in several days later, so most upperclass students are not in residence when freshman arrive. Freshman, and their parents, unpack the car, lug stuff up to their room and get acclimated on their own and with the help of their roommates. At the end of move-in day, parents say their goodbyes, and freshman go off to a series of orientation meetings and freshman-only events.

At Yale, sophomores, juniors and seniors move-in to their dorms on the first day the campus opens. Several days later, freshman move-in to their dorms with the HELP of upperclass students. Freshman year at Yale during move-in day, our car was literally swarmed by 30 upperclass students who unpacked our son’s belongings and carried them up to his room. In the afternoon, there was a student-parent reception at the master’s house, followed by a dinner for freshman with upperclass students in their colleges, and in the evening, there was a one huge party for the entire campus.

That kind of welcome set the tone for my son’s time at Yale – and all of it was a well orchestrated plan by Yale’s administration to create a vibrant campus environment that fosters hard work, unity and FUN. There’s an old expression in Cambridge: “Mother Harvard doesn’t coddle her young.” That’s a positive way of saying “Harvard’s administration seems to lack the imagination or the desire to make the campus into a warmer and more inviting place.” IMHO, Harvard’s “social tone” would be much improved if the school were run by Yale’s administration, or at the very least, Harvard adopted a more student-centric approach to campus life.

[proudparent26]

@gibby Your information must be a little dated or you were simply not provided all the information by your child. When my kid moved into the freshman dorms a couple of years ago at Harvard there were lots of upperclassmen there to HELP. I was literally shocked by all the upper class help. I went to UC where there was no help when I moved in. There was a sophomore or junior who was also specifically assigned as their upper class advisor for the whole year for my kid. He was there all move in day and even helped with the boxes much to my surprise.The advisor was in addition to the other upper classmen who helped. Each group of about 30 students had a resident assistant who lived in the building and helped with different issues that arose. The resident assistant I think was a graduate student. In addition there was a faculty member specifically assigned to my kid for guidance and help

There was a dinner for parents. I think it was move in day. I am not sure how Harvard could make it a more warm and inviting place. I don’t think it is HUMANLY possible. Lets not forget Freshman Parents weekend two months later in November

As to events I know the entry way group went to red sox games and some other events as a group. The freshman class gets to know each other as a group at Harvard. They then get to choose their roommates for future years. The freshman also get to live close to campus and eat together the first year. They are not constrained to their one house. This provides more social interaction for the freshman year as well as years beyond. The kids have friends all over campus

From what I have heard and seen I much prefer the Harvard model

[ReadyForTheWind]

@gibby Is it possible that these changes, particularly “randomizing students into their house,” could happen for the incoming Harvard class of 2020?

[gibby]

@proudparent26: My daughter was a freshman in 2009, so possibly Harvard changed things around in the last several years. But back then, no upperclass students were on campus to help when we moved my daughter into Matthews. My daughter, son, wife and I had to lug everything up three flights of stairs by ourselves. And dinner was not provided for parents; it was for the students. Those kind of things you don’t forget.

FWIW: I actually think Harvard freshman would have a much better experience if they were randomly assigned a residential house and moved directly into them with sophomores and juniors. That would allow the seniors to take over the Harvard Yard dorms. In that way, Freshman would immediately be embraced by their fellow Havardians and have all the benefits of house life, while the seniors, who by then are yearning for independence, might relish having their final year in the yard.

[ReadyForTheWind]

@gibby Do you think these changes will be implemented soon? Or no way to tell

[gibby]

The Harvard Corporation is a large bureaucratic machine which moves very slowly. For example, prior to 1999 women graduating from Harvard were given Radcliffe diplomas even though the two schools were merged 20 years earlier. (Men received Harvard diplomas, but not the women.) So, no I don’t think the changes talked about today are going to be implemented any time soon, if at all. The changes would have to be talked about, debated and voted upon by the administration, faculty, alumni and current students, each having input. But only after a task-force was assigned to do a two-year study on the issue

[proudparent26]

@gibby so your proposal is the seniors after living three years on the river are going to want to move into the yard and leave all their friends behind. That doesn’t sound very realistic to me. I don’t think changes like that will ever happen.

I think the current situation at Harvard works great. Lets not forget that seniors the last year in their house get to pick the best rooms. They are not going to want to give that up.

Some kids their freshmen year didn’t bring a ton of stuff so they didn’t have to worry about who was going to lug everything up multiple flights of stairs. I think my kid had two suitcases and 3 or 4 boxes we mailed in

[prezbucky]

How are they alike?

Both schools have done a pretty good job through the years of molding leaders.

Both schools are known worldwide for outstanding educational quality. Harvard/Yale is not just about football: this is the oldest, most blue-blooded academic rivalry in the US.

Both have venerable social and residential scenes.

Both have a plethora of outstanding academic programs at all levels, including the undergrad. If you work hard to earn your degree and are diligent when it’s time to find internships/research spots (and ultimately, a permanent job), chances are good that you will be firmly on a path to vocational success.

---

How are they different?

Dark red vs. dark blue

The three-year-dorm system (and/or Final Clubs, right?) vs. the residential colleges.

Relatively more STEM focus at Harvard vs. relatively more humanities/social sciences focus at Yale.

Possibly, Harvard might be a hair more focused overall on grad and PhD programs than Yale is. (While neither is quite Princetonian in undergraduate zealotry, we aren’t debating Princeton here.)

New Haven vs. Boston – Plenty has been written about both in a multitude of threads on this site.

Advice:

You say that you love Yale.

Unless something about Harvard really sweeps you off your feet at this point – EG you visit and it just blows you away, or the FA is like $20k+ better than Yale over four years – I think you should stick with your first love, as you described it: Yale.

Many preach fit here: as long as you can afford it (not an issue here, right?), go to the place that feels most like home academically, environmentally, socially and culturally.

[skieurope]

@gibby Is it possible that these changes, particularly “randomizing students into their house,” could happen for the incoming Harvard class of 2020?

Do you think these changes will be implemented soon? Or no way to tell

Not a snowball’s chance in hell. If, and that’s a huge if, there are any meaningful changes being contemplated for residential living, as @gibby indicated, an aircraft carrier reverses direction faster than Harvard implements change. Not that that is always a bad thing.

[T26E4]

In case y’all don’t know, skieurope is currently a Harvard undergrad…