<p>tk, why do you bring up the rankings? What’s their use for the OP’s inquiry? How reliable are they to what the OP wanted to know about? Princeton ranks #1 on USNews vs Stanford which was ranked #6. Is Princeton better than Stanford because USNews says so? Besides, if you’re really into rankings, well, USNews ranks Berkeley #21 and Georgetown #22 or #23. Georgetown outranked Berkeley - only once - since USNews started the rankings. </p>
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<p>Oh, come on! More selective than Berkeley? Really? lol </p>
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<p>OP, what tk failed to understand is that, Californians are quite diverse in itself. It is the melting pot of people from all nationalities. It’s where the East meets West. It’s like going shopping in the streets of London where you’ll see a sea of people with different skin and hair colors. The State of California alone is like equivalent to another 10 or 15 US States. So, do not listen to some posters here when they contrast California with some so-so US State. For most people who live outside of America, America has only 3 States: California, New York and Others.</p>
<p>That’s what’s called a tie, RML. No reasonable person considers there to be a meaningful difference. It’s really not that hard to say, “They are both great choices and you won’t go wrong either way. Here’s why my vote goes to Berkeley …” as opposed to the continued elevation of Berkeley as the greatest thing since sliced bread. Honestly, the defensiveness of the Berkeley people who seem not to acknowledge that there are other great choices in this country doesn’t speak very well. It’s very inferiority-complex.</p>
<p>But guess what? For most people in America, California is really … truly … just another state. A big one, to be sure, with a lot of economic power, but really … Americans don’t sit around all day long and wish they were in California. Which is why UC Berkeley - as great of a school as it is - isn’t on the radar screens of many people outside California. <em>Which doesn’t reflect on the school</em> - but just reflects the fact that non-Californians don’t think about California and its school system anywhere near the amount that Californians like to think they do. (Texas has this same problem, too. Really, just another state.)</p>
<p>Because you made a tendentious statement about Berkeley (“It’s hands down the best place in your list”) that is not fully supported by objective, unbiased evidence. I think the OP deserves a more balanced assessment. I’m assuming academic quality is a significant factor in his decision (though warblersrule makes a plausible argument that maybe it should not be). I think on that score, for a person like him, Berkeley probably wins (but not “hands down”).</p>
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<p>Yes, and I think the balance of evidence supports me. If you have other evidence, please show us. I have no irrational, emotional attachment to either school. Here’s my own evidence:</p>
<p>They are very close. Neck and neck, really. If you want to point to, say, the Princetown Review admission selectivity scores (which do show Berkeley as marginally more selective), I’m not going to sneeringly dismiss that as laughable. But it also should be pointed out that private, national universities like Georgetown select from national & international applicant pools on a truly “holistic” basis with little or no regard for ability to pay. So if anything, the slight numeric advantages that GU seems to hold may be understating its selectivity relative to UCB.</p>
<p>And I don’t believe there are “so-so US States”. The Ivies and other highly selective private universities try hard to get representation from all 50 of them and from diverse foreign countries. Presumably, they believe this actually serves an educational as well as marketing purposes. Berkeley has its own imperatives in the form of obligations to the citizens of California.</p>
<p>Right. It’s not a BAD thing that Berkeley has its own imperative to serve the state of California - but it’s something to consider, esp for someone who wants to meet a wide range of Americans. “Wide range of Californians” =/= “wide range of Americans.”</p>
<p>I think you’ve got two great choices. I wouldn’t worry overly about the Greek scene at Berkeley. It’s not a huge part of social life.</p>
<p>I suggest you get David Lodge’s book “Changing Places.” It’s a very fun read about a British and Berkeley professor doing an exchange, though, Berkeley of the 60’s is not the Berkeley of today.</p>
<p>Some persons try to run with things previous posters forwarded as if these were things the OP originally intended in his original message.</p>
<p>For instance, tk21769 running with the idea that Pizzagirl forwarded about the OP running into mainly Californians when attending UCLA or Cal.</p>
<p>Maybe this is what OP intended by mentioning both schools; maybe this is what he wanted. Obviously this would fit into the argument of a CA student wanting to get away for school … not to run into his/her fellow hs students or those of general like background. It doesn’t necessarily fit into the idea that someone from outside of CA might want to experience by attending a UC school.</p>
<p>And no, Californians aren’t so “snobbish” as to not allow someone from outside of the state not to join their coterie(s). And there are people of various backgrounds in CA for OP to experience something someone might not be able to experience by attending a u in a more homogeneous state … so for even instate students being supposedly stuck with like instate students under Pizza’s argument doesn’t apply for UC students or students in CA in general.</p>
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<p>Yeah, that’d be a legitimate argument if games were played during the weekday not on Saturday, and students were stuck on a bus during rush hour on, say, a Thursday.</p>
<p>And getting away from one’s island of Westwood can be a fun experience to be had by those trying to take in as many different things during one’s college experience.</p>
<p>The 70% figure we’ve been citing as the percentage of Californians actually refers to admitted undergraduates. Among enrolled undergraduates, according to that document, 86% are Californians. </p>
<p>tk, I am in awe with your abilities. I think that ability of yours to know which school is more selective than the other is awesome, fantastic…, so bravo! </p>
<p>Now, I’d like to know which is more selective between Princeton and Yale or between Stanford and MIT or between Dartmouth or Brown or between Northwestern and WashingtonUStL. </p>
<p>I don’t think you can accurately do that, tk. Why? Because there are things happening in the real world that cannot be reflected through statistics, especially when the gaps are so small such as the one you’ve just shown. It’s silly when someone says, school x is more selective than school y because school x has lower admit rate than school y by 1%. In reality, no one can say, I’m like “in” for Berkeley but “not” for Georgetown. The application process at Berkeley doesn’t work that way. Berkeley admissions are not entirely numbers based, so your statistics cannot measure that. I even doubt it if the OP will really be accepted to Berkeley - as an exchange student - becausethe slots for that program are oversubscribed. Frankly speaking, the OP has even way more chances of spending a year at Georgetown than at Berkeley. The kids I helped process their application to Berkeley as exchange students were disappointed because they were not given the slots. A number of them ended up at UCSB, UC Irvine and Georgetown. Yes you’ve read that right, Georgetown. They ended up there because they couldn’t get into Berkeley! </p>
<p>Now, if the OP would successfully win a slot at Berkeley, as an exchange student, it would be an honor, so I suggest he or she should grab it. Very few people back in Ireland have even heard of a school named, Georgetown.</p>
<p>I would choose Georgetown and its location in DC hands down. The academic prestige of the institution really shouldn’t play that huge of a role when choosing a study abroad school, especially when they’re all relatively similar in that regard anyways. More important in my mind is the location and social aspects. Georgetown’s location in DC makes it walkable to a lot of interesting sites and being on the East Coast, it’s easy to get to other large cities cheaply. I’d imagine you’d want to travel a bit during breaks, and getting to NYC, Philly, etc. is really easy via bus or train. The bus to New York is only like $30. I personally like to explore a variety of a different cities when I am in a location for an extended period of time. If you’re in California, your travels are pretty much confined to the state unless you can spend a lot of time and money. On top of that, I just think Georgetown and DC would be interesting to live in for a year or less, but I suppose it’s personal preference.</p>
<p>Outside of the USA, no one would seriously believe that Georgetown is seriously of Berkeley’s caliber. People outside of the US don’t usually refer to USNews to know which schools in the US are the best. They refer to world rankings, if not the subject rankings. In both cases, Berkeley is miles superior to Georgetown. People outside of the US think Georgetown is just another Jesuit school in America. Yeah, good, but not great, you know what I mean… The same people would think Berkeley is a serious world-class university, in the same caliber as HYPSM+Oxbridge and Caltech. People outside of the US don’t distinguish undergrad and grad/postgrad. Only in CC where they kind of do such a thing. </p>
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yeah right! That’s probably why California is the most populous US state with a population equal to about 10 to 15 US states. lol</p>
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<p>OP, I know the sky in Ireland is gray most of the time. I know Ireland. I go there. In fact, I spent 3 years at Cambridge. Well, DC isn’t really any different from that. Maybe you like that, okay. But I challenge you to try how it is like to live in place where there’s plenty of sunshine. It’s awesome, man!</p>
<p>“People outside of the US think Georgetown is just another Jesuit school”</p>
<p>Who are these mythical people outside of the US who know enough about Georgetown to know that it’s not only Catholic but Jesuit, and are aware of other Jesuit schools in the US, but don’t see any difference between Georgetown and Holy Cross or Marquette?</p>
<p>Most people outside the US really don’t have a clue as to what is good and what isn’t - they rely very much on hearsay, “I’ve always heard of X so it must be good,” and so forth. Therefore, who really cares? The goodness of something is not determined by how many hands in other lands are raised when it is mentioned. Harvard isn’t great because everyone in Italy or Asia knows about it; it’s great because of what it actually is, even if everyone outside the US shrugged when its name was mentioned.</p>
<p>But you’ve always been about drawing a lot of self-worth from the popularity contest, even down to caring what the drycleaner thinks of your sweatshirt.</p>
<p>All I’ve tried to do is cite available evidence. I’m not insensitive to the weaknesses of that evidence (from the Common Data Set files and other sources). That evidence cannot perfectly predict the outcomes for individual applicants.</p>
<p>But in this discussion, we haven’t been focusing on this particular applicant’s chances at these two schools. I didn’t think he wanted a “chance me” exchange. If he does, then I really don’t know how Berkeley and Georgetown view exchange applicants from Trinity College Dublin. For all I know, his chances are much better at Georgetown than at Berkeley (average stats notwithstanding).</p>
<p>However, if we’re comparing student bodies (not individual chances), then it’s hard to avoid talking about averages and demographics. The published numbers on student selectivity (SAT scores, admit rates) seem to show that Georgetown (along with a good 20 or more other private schools) is more selective than Berkeley (slightly more so in GU’s case), in terms of admit rates and scores. </p>
<p>Now I suppose it’s possible that Berkeley has some mysterious mojo that enables it to do a better job of selecting the best students in a way that is not fully captured by scores and admit rates alone. But I don’t think so. Big public universities (even Berkeley, I think) are more numbers-driven, less holistic than very selective private schools. Nevertheless, 20-25 private schools appear to outcompete Berkeley even in the numbers game. They compete in a national market for top students, with relatively little or no regard for ability to pay. Berkeley can’t do that.</p>
<p>Wow – thanks to everyone who’s contributed to this thread since I last checked - a lot of helpful stuff out there!
Berkeley is definitely the most famous of these colleges in Ireland – to a slightly weird degree, to be honest. The flip side of that, however, is that I’d be less likely to be given a place there than at the others, which pretty much balances that out. UCLA and Georgetown are both pretty well known, though (the latter largely because of Bill Clinton). I think Georgetown would probably look best on my CV, though.
Anyway, whilst I’m glad to give everyone an opportunity to vent some good old fashioned school rivalry, I’d like to drag the conversation back to the student-life side of things, if possible. People talking about location mostly seem to be recommending Georgetown, which is interesting. That said, the idea of exploring California appeals to me more than exploring the North-East.</p>
<p>Weather’s a consideration, though not the biggest one (I suspect the people of Southern California might be rather shocked by my glow-in-the-dark skin ). </p>
<p>I’ve heard good stuff about International House at Cal, but I don’t think I’d choose to live there – I already have plenty of friends from around the world, and going all the US but not living with many Americans would seem odd.</p>
<p>Does anyone know how the workload would compare between these colleges? Whilst I’m not afraid of some hard work, I’d rather not spend the whole year in the library.</p>
). </p>