In French 2 we read Le Petit Nicholas and Le Petit Prince. If I was close to fluent spending a year doing that and the simple grammar to go with it would drive me crazy. There are plenty of easy classes that surely would be more fun. Like mathyone, it’s not the easiness that concerns me, but the total waste of time - and the fact that it’s basically unfair to the kids who are new to the material.
I’d talk with his high school guidance counselor about the French classes. Seriously, I can think of fewer more useless things than to take a basic class in a language in which he’s already fluent. Unless you really think he can use the refresher, I’d ask him to find something more useful to do with his time. Even a study hall period would at least allow him to get some homework done so he has more time after school for going on Tumblr or whatever it is he likes to do.
By the way, I totally agree with you that an easy life is a good life, if you can get it. I do not subscribe to the idea that we all need to be pushing ourselves to our limits all the time out of some misguided idea that achievement equals virtue. And even if you told me that your son wants to take French 2 because there’s a cute girl who’ll be in that class, I’d accept that. But in the end, he’s only - what? – 12? 13? He is not the best judge of what is best for him, or even of what he’s most likely to enjoy or find worthwhile. I’m all in favor of letting him plan his own path, but you might at least talk to him and find out if he’d be interested in taking whatever exams are necessary to place into a higher level of French so that he can take some classes that would actually teach him something, or at least have some free time.
Mathyone, you are missing the econ in 12th grade.
All, I agree that it is a waste of time, but then I believe 6 credits each year is a waste of time and 5 credits is enough for a good education. But he HAS to take 6 credits. So, frankly, the only alternative is French 4 and French 5 in grades 9 and 10, and then taking more English or Math in grades 11 and 12. Now, as is, he will end High School with 7 undergraduate English credits, and 6 undergraduate mathematics credits already. He will be able to squeeze in 4 more undergraduate credits if he skips French 2 and 3.
Isn’t there a limit? Unless he nearly finishes a dual major in English and Math while in high school, he is a slacker? I must tell you, only in America. There’s a innate culture that everyone should always challenge themselves and work hard. Personally, I like laziness. It has served me well throughout my life.
Also, if he takes orchestra, statistics or computer science instead, he will just be as advanced compared to the other kids as in French 2 and 3 (though far more so in orchestra and statistics). So that won’t be fair either, right? All roads ultimately lead to taking history if fairness and learnign something new is considered. But then that’s because he doesn’t like history (otherwise I suspect he would have studied it already), and HENCE doesn’t want to take history either, because he doesn’t like it. It’s circular, really.
Do your son’s additional lit classes at the extension school count as high school credits? And how far would the morning school go to accommodate his placement in the correct French class? Is the French teacher a native-speaker? If not, your son might embarrass the teacher by being more fluent than the instructor … and there goes the easy A. I would talk to the guidance counselor about this matter. Chances are your son is not the first student with such a disconnect in language mastery and course level. You would never let him take Algebra 1 in 9th grade, right? He would be so bored to death, easy A or not.
Most public high schools let you switch classes during the first two weeks. I am sure the private school you describe does the same … Also, think about skills that go along with a later professional goal: graphic design, 3-D art, business classes, coding - anything that might help him get a first job and is also easy, yet more useful than French. Now, I do know that not all speakers of a language can also read and write in it but if he has gone to school in a francophone country, that will not be the case. I also know that a language withers and dies when not spoken. If that is the case, let him take French by all means, just talk to the teacher and guidance counselor about placement and rather have him take AP Gov and AP Econ in 12th grade or the equivalent the school offers.
Again, I wouldn’t worry too much about anything but count your blessings for having such a gifted son and your plan to get him to college in “one piece” as a NYT article expressed recently about the Best and Brightest in Palo Alto.
My son is not a native speaker, nor did he grow up in a Francophone country. He just went to an International School in the USA. He has an ear for languages and music. It’s innate. He speaks 5 languages fluently (2 are languages spoken at home/home country, two - French and Spanish - he picked up in his International School, the last is his native language, English) and then picked up Latin in middle school.
We helped him along by showing him French New Wave and Latin American movies (an essential part of education anyway) from a very early age. We would read the subtitle as we don’t speak any French or Spanish, but he didn’t need to. He just picked it up.
The teacher is a native French speaker. No, I wouldn’t let the school put him in Algebra 1, but that’s because he wouldn’t want to. If he wanted to take Algebra 1, I would fully support it. Like I said, I never, ever pushed him. In fact, we always tried to slow him down and make him do less. He will live a good 80-90 years, if not more. So what’s the rush?
There’s an old English saying, Jack of all trades, Master of none. I don’t want him to grow up to be someone like that. Anyway, the course list has been approved by the school. Still, I just talked to him, and he said perhaps he can do French 4 and 5 in grades 9 and 10, and Spanish 4 and 5 in grades 11 and 12. But he is absolutely not going to take any more history or science, and wants to take only 3 credits in each.
OK what about PE? Easy? Check. Furthers his goals by increasing fitness and thereby presumably helping him in the sport he does? Check.
Sports is non-credit. Can’t substitute academic course with sports. At any rate, he plays the sport all year on his own anyway (because he likes to, it’s fun, and because he has been playing it since he was 3, starting with me) and is fit as a fiddle. What we are cutting out with the arts EC/sports waiver are sports that he doesn’t like to play. By the way, he will be far above average in his sport when he does play it in school in the winter season (and therefore that will be unfair to the other kids who are just picking it up). Take him out and force him into baseball and soccer and football, which he hates and has never played in the past, instead?
There is a theme to all this, Mathyone. Cut out whatever you don’t like/are not good in. Double up on the rest. Accomplishment, education-life balance, and happiness all go up. Isn’t that a good thing?
Look, you obviously know your kid far better than we do. But there seem to be a lot of people agreeing with me that the french is a total waste of time for him. Most parents of gifted kids spend years wrestling with the fact that their kids are bored out of their minds in school and trying to do things to get them challenge wherever it can be had. Your son just appears to be a lot different than my kids, and than most gifted kids I know, who really do hate being underchallenged. My kids would rather work harder at something, even if it isn’t their special interest, than be bored. In fact, my non-fluent daughter skipped over a year of foreign language because she felt the pace was too slow and she wasn’t learning much. Before you accuse me again of being a pushy parent, I learned about that particular plan when she called me from school to ask my permission to do it. When I was in high school I also tried the easier path in subjects I disliked and had such bad experiences in regular classes, I too became willing to work harder to avoid wasting my time with such boredom. Why not ceramics? Maybe he would enjoy that.
To keep with your Language/Math analogy: wrt French, it’s not “pushing” to place him at the right level. It’s as if your son had precalculus, and you placed him in basic arithmetics. He’ll be bored to death. I agree he shouldn’t be pushed, but he won’t learn anything and spend 5 periods each week sitting in a class that he could be enjoying without much work. To make sure he’s placed at the right level, you may ask if there’s a placement test.
I don’t think you understand how slow the HS levels 1 and 2 (in particular) are. To give you an idea, a college course covers in 4 months what HS levels 1 and 2 cover in 2 years. It’s painstakingly slow - think about grade school slow and that’s how slow that is. Think spending two weeks on “je suis, tu es/ est-ce que tu es? Oui je suis, non je ne suis pas”. Could your son handle 10 periods of this (which is like doing sumns for 2 weeks, 3+4 = 7. 3+… =7? Yes some kids need TIME to get their heads arond the concept of conjugation, then learning, memorizing, using. If somebody said “your son knows precalculus, he doesn’t need to review signle-digit sumns”, would you say that’s pushing your son?) Or actually this may take up to a month in a regular HS but I’m thinking your school goes faster than most.
HS level 3 picks up a bit (think regular 6th grade pace for Language arts or, since you’re at a good private school, regular HS pace), HS 4 is decent (and you indicated it would be sufficient for AP). For a student who is fluent in French, HS4 would keep him interested. Of course it depends on the school (this doesn’t apply to Andover, for instance where level 1 covers what other schools cover in 1+2; level 2 is 3+4 more or less, 3 is AP, and 4+ is college-major level, so if your school is like this, a placement test may be more accurate).
What would he take next if he completes HSlevel4 freshman year? Whatever the college offers at times that suit him. After HS4, he’d probably take College Level3 for review, so it wouldn’t be super hard for him either, but would integrate more skills and culture which would keep him interested. After that, there’s often a communication class, then a grammar/writing class, then classes where students are expected to read and retain material in French, ie., read to learn, but that may be too advanced for him and that’s not what I’m suggesting unless he’s interested.
I give up. What I find the key attraction of the course load is exactly what you guys seem to find as the key weakness. So we don’t disagree on the facts, we just disagree on the conclusion drawn from the facts. I think you are missing the forrest for the trees. I will try this one last time. Consider the 9th grade course load:
In school:
- Super Light work: French 2, Music Theory
- Light work: Calculus BC, Latin 2, Sports
- Moderate work: English 1
- Hard work: Biology
Outside of school:
- Super Hard work: Composition
- Hard work: Extension School 2 English courses one in each semester
- Moderate work: Competition Math, Piano
- Light work: Cello, Orchestra, Sports
Now let’s do this by hours. Accounting for 9.5 hours of sleep per day (inviolable), there is about ~100 hours left in the week. School is about 50 hours per week, including commute and homework, music about 15 hours (though I am trying to recover half), and math another 10 hours. The extension school courses take about 10 hours per week as well. So, the kid is left with only about 1.5 hours per day of true free time, as he does need some time for showering and eating and changing his clothes, right?
When I was a kid I never, ever worked this hard. The way I see it, the weekdays are a blurr. Now, it is the kid’s choosing, but IMO there is no room for any more, and he definitely needs to keep his school load light. If I had my druthers I would also significantly cut out of school load, and I am negotiating with him to ditch cello and orchestra. But teenagers are obstinate.
Go with your gut. You know your child and his schedule.
Agree with others that French 2 and 3 would be a waste of time (possibly also 4 and 5 if he really is fluent in French – if that is the case, he can just take the AP French test and be done with it).
He can then use the extra schedule space to take whatever he wants that he is interested in. They do not necessarily have to be “hard” courses. Given his ability in languages, perhaps another language? PE/sports? More advanced music or CS at the college? Additional social studies (if he is not into history, what about the other social studies like psychology, sociology, economics, anthropology, political science at the college)? Or more English and/or math?
In Germany rather than having different level courses we have different level schools. That creates stress for 4th graders because they have to place into that next school. The Gymnasium is the college-prep school. In mine there was a neo-language/music branch and math/science branch. You had to make that decision in 7th grade.
Choice between Latin and then French or just French. We all had to learn English from 5th grade on.
We also had to specialize our education for year 12/13, so in 11 th grade we had to take everything to be able to choose the following year. Two foreign languages, biology, chemistry, physics, math, German, music, art, history, economics, geography. It was terrible. The last two years were much better, I concentrated on biology, French, German and economics. Chose music instead of art, took an easier math course. In the end I didn’t go on to university because only certain careers required it. The one I chose I could do as an apprenticeship, on-the-job training combined with vocational school.
So even if we could specialize our education that didn’t mean we had an easier work load, except maybe the last two years. Here in the US while you are in high school you have to take 4-5 required courses and some electives. Then in college you can specialize more, but often there are still general education requirements that everyone has to take.
Once you are a grown-up you don’t get to do only things you enjoy, so I guess it’s better to learn to deal with this early on.
UCBAlumnus, Any thoughts on the hours? Adding a course that will require work eats into the meagre free time.
Mommdc, I think the US system is fine till 8th grade where everyone takes everything. But then in 9th grde I would recommend specialization. High school is the time when the workload spikes up. That’s where relief is needed.
I would disagree that once you are a grown-up you don’t get to do only things that you enjoy. The more I advance in life, the more I am able to shed things from my life that I don’t enjoy. Looking back to my early career days, I was made to do some totally useless things indeed in the spirit of getting trained as a well-rounded general manager. I was never general manager material. I was supposed to be a specialist, that’s where my skills/inclination lay, and that’s who I became later in life.
It pays better, too. 
Even a low level course in something that he already knows will require busywork. Again, he need not choose the hardest or highest workload courses, but he may as well learn something new for the same amount of work.
You may be confusing “easy” with “little work”. Your son will have homework for french2, as much of it as for french3&4. There’s no difference in the amount, but there’s a difference in type. How much does your son like me repetitive stuff you ave to copy over and over? Because in French 2 that’s basically what he’ll do. Since he’s likely to grasp the concept to immediately, copying thewill be pointless but he will STILL have to write out his answers to es-tu content? Using Es tu triste? Non je me suis pas triste as a model for a dozen adjectives then the same thing using the positive form, then the same thing using antonyms. And that’s if your high school is really advanced as this type of substitution would be considered very difficult as it requires lots of conceptual manipulations. The issue is that French 3or4 will NOT be more work than french2. But do you really want to inflict busywork to your son? Because bright kids typically hate busywork. Would you be fine with his taking " how to play the piano with two fingers" when you know he could enroll in “intro to playing with both hands” which would ALSO be super easy for him?
All of this may be moot because even if you don’t request a placement test the teacher may well place him into another class so as to not derail the classfrench2 for whom “cje ne s/he me suis pas content/es tu content” is a struggle that will require weeks to master as well as many many exercises.
i don’t think anyone has mentioned this. OP your child sounds headstrong. I would get ready for the plan to change. what i mean by that is, i would decide right now what you are ok with him dropping from the schedule, and what must stay. it would be a rare 8th grader, indeed, that predicted their entire course schedule accurately through high school. if dropping any of these courses for something else would not work for you, i would be prepared, at least in the back of your mind, with a replacement. BTW, the all fields all years type of schedule does not have to be followed for success. my kid is now in engineering, having taken no science at all senior year. once the guidance counselor was revived, the schedule turned out not to be a problem.
“What do you guys think of this plan? Any downside for college admissions? Goal is English and Math dual Major.”
What type of college admissions are you referencing, what type of downsides? As in not gaining acceptances or not going to college or not finding a “true fit”?
Or the questions I would ask, finding a schedule and learning path that would lead him to a college that would be a natural progression from high school to college? And would that schedule allow him to develop and grow and encourage his passions? And passions he doesn’t even know he enjoys? As an 8th grader (gifted) he doesn’t know yet what he doesn’t know. That comes with time, education and maturity.
If you were to ask my son he would tell you that his real growth came from taking classes, being placed in situations/circumstances and experiences that were outside his comfort zone. He was always a math/science student but he also choose to stretch beyond classes that where easy for him.
His high school schedule was close to your son’s as far as math and english, cal1-4 and then beyond. College classes in the english department and research in the summer at UNC/Duke. But he also wanted to not be ignorant of those subjects that were difficult for him. He also took 2 different foreign languages and lots of history and econ.
He was admitted EA to MIT and Cal Tech, RD to the ivies, and the academies. While in elementary and middle school he knew he had difficulty with various sports so he was determined to do/be something different. He ended up captain of several varsity high school sports and championship teams. But his biggest accomplishment was starting and running a tutoring program for his peers, he learned humility, patience, accountibility and team work and to put others before self. For a geeky, STEM kiddo who loved video games he grew and learned so much about himself.
Again he would tell you that going beyond your comfort zone is the key to evolving into your potential. He is an ivy alum with a degree in economics, biochemistry, microbiology, and minors in Greek studies and genetics. He is now starting his last year (MS4) of med school and his MBA. He says specializing would have kept him from learning so much and enriching his life and those around him. As your son is, he is also interested in progress of society, well his senior thesis said as much!
However, unlike your son he did not attend private high school but rather a low SES rural, southern high school with a 75%+ free and reduced lunch population. He knew that to lead by example would create a different world he and his classmates lived in. He had enough units to graduate by midyear of 10th grade, he chose to stay. The state had a STEM boarding school, but lacked the community interaction he desired.
I am of the mind-set “to whom much is given, much is expected.”
Son is of the Teddy Roosevelt mind-set “of a strenuous life”:
“I wish to preach, not the doctrine of ignoble ease, but the doctrine of the strenuous life, the life of toil and effort, of labor and strife; to preach that highest form of success which comes, not to the man who desires mere easy peace, but to the man who does not shrink from danger, from hardship, or from bitter toil, and who out of these wins the splendid ultimate triumph.” TR
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” TR
So to again attempt to answer your question, does your son’s schedule challenge him, does he have a chance to explore different subjects that he does or does NOT enjoy? And the downside would be him not attending a college/university where he will grow to his potential. His college matriculation should be a natural consequence of his high school career and his future. Will his schedule do that?
Kat
He might enjoy certain things more when he is able to study them at a higher/more sophisticated level. He also might radically change his mind about what interests him. I know a scientist who became an artist, several who went into businesses completely unrelated to science, an actor who is going to med school, as well as an MD who left to pursue acting, an engineer who went into finance. And these were adults mostly with advanced degrees, not a 13 year old.
If he thinks brushing his teeth is dull and he can save time by skipping it, will you allow that or will you decide that he doesn’t have the life perspective and maturity to appreciate the potential benefit to him?
I noticed you listed biology as “hard”. Is this really a big time sink? It’s not AP is it? My daughter was able to complete her 9th grade bio homework on the short bus ride home. I rarely saw her doing anything on it at home. And it was a very solid course.
Why don’t you have him join the school orchestra? Then he can still have some participation, ditch the French, save time outside of school both on the French busywork and on the time he would have spent at the outside orchestra. He might have fun in the school orchestra and even if the music is easy for him to play you can always strive to play better. Who knows, the orchestra teacher might come up with some difficult solos for him?
Additionally wanted to add, my daughter’s school had a talented student composer. Her band performed one of his compositions. So if he’s composing, being in the orchestra might help with some collaboration there.
Okay…I’m confused. While you seem to post a question, you tell everyone who answers why his/her answer is wrong, and yours are right.
I think the current gameplan is incredibly ambitious. I also think it’s a bit silly…but you know your kid and I don’t. Still, while I think a true gift for math is usually self-evident very early on in life, I don’t know how anyone could possibly know he wants to dual major in math and English in college at the age of 14. I don’t think most kids have the foggiest idea of what a college English major studies. …or how hard it is to pull off a dual major in fields where the course requirements don’t overlap, at least if you attend a college that also has some distribution or “gen ed” requirements.
So, if I were you…I’d back off a bit on the “goal” of a dual major in English and math…and think in terms of does this make sense for my kid right now; does it meet the requirements for high school graduation; and does it meet the minimum requirements for admission to the flagship state U.