<p>Okay, all USMA parents and cadets out there looking at this site. I need your help. On Thursday and Friday, I had my Candidate Visit. Well, it was awful. The cadets I was with absolutely hate it there as far as I could tell. Lots of people told me never to come, there are other ways into the army. That broke my heart, I love West Point! But I couldn't get a fair view of it (I couldn't judge it for myself) because everything I was shown was shown through a negative perspective. Now I understand that there will be lots of ups and downs at West Point, but man these guys just told me they hate it. They regret going there, and want to switch. The cadet was fighting with her room mates, she was sick, and she just made me feel like it was the worst place on earth. I thought the campus was beautiful, and I was trying so hard to love it because thats really where I want to go! I'm trying to put the visit behind me, because there attitude won't necessarily be the same as mine. I talked to a few girls who absolutely love it, and I really wish I could have stayed with them. Marines4me and twin_b, what is your attitude about USMA? I know its tough sometimes, but is it so awful you wish you had never gone? I need some different perspectives if you don't mind. I suspect the cadet I was with was just having a rough week, but man I'm really confused now.</p>
<p>soccer,</p>
<p>We were told just a few months ago that the favorite pasttime at West Point is complaining about West Point. I had a hard time believing it then. Well, the parents who offered this advice were accurate. I think you'll hear multiple complaints from the happiest, most hooah cadets. </p>
<p>There has been some discussion on this board about the "gray days" that are filled with such gloom. The plebes have just had 2+ weeks at home with family and friends. They didn't have to do duties, cup their hands, recite knowledge and basically could live a normal life. They returned after such a nice time to new leadership in each company. The new leaders have to establish themselves, therefore the few privileges expected (music, makeup, etc.) may not be granted immediately. In the meantime, the poor plebes return to duties, cupped hands, no talking in the halls, and reciting knowledge all over again. Many have described hating it, but that seems to be a knee-jerk reaction. Upon reflection they say that it is terribly annoying and they are just plain tired of being irritated plebes.</p>
<p>You will find cadets who are miserable and you will find others who think more critically and will give you specifics about what they don't like. However, they will also say that as irritated as parts of the experience may be, it is well worth it. I suspect that anyone who says that they just love it, as if they are talking about any old fun time, is either having a really good day or is in denial. </p>
<p>There is one guarantee. It will not be easy and there will be days that you hate it there. Ask yourself what you really want and what is that worth to you.</p>
<p>Good luck, soccer. I'm also interested in what m4m and twinb have to say.</p>
<p>"NO ONE has ever gone through West Point without serious thoughts of quitting. That's what the first year is for. If you WEREN'T thinking of resigning, the Academy has at least partially failed in testing your hopes, your dreams, your upbringing, ...you. You are in a dark fog now, a fog known by every other cadet--Plebe and upper-class alike, both present and prior classes, every graduate and non-graduate. It is after Christmas, Christmas Leave, and before Spring. It is Gloom Period.
Don't even think of a rational decision now. You're more than halfway to Recognition, to Yearling status, to having <em>Beat Them At Their Own Game.</em>
What you're <em>not,</em> is finished with... - An academic year that you can transfer - Building the ability to hold your head up to say "I finished everything they could throw at me" - The test of your life to date
You STAY until the end of the year. You stay four months. You stay through Spring, and then May.
Then your options are anything you want. Do anything any earlier and you will always wonder "....What if?" And ask yourself, "If only...." And you will have wasted the most valuable year of your life. For you will have quit in the middle of the Lesson, ...the middle of finding out who you are."</p>
<p>I suspect you saw a bit of the above..........we have received more than one "gloomy"call from our cadet since xmas leave. It seems to affect all of them at one time or another regardless of class rank, motivation, physical fitness, hooah level, or military family tradition. It seems to be just another part of the 4th class system.</p>
<p>Soccer,</p>
<p>Well we just got back from my son's overnight visit yesterday....my son's experience was exactly the opposite.</p>
<p>He attended classes, ate in the dining hall, and went to a hockey game.</p>
<p>His host, while admitting that his first summer had been tough, said that he really liked being there (unusual for a plebe).</p>
<p>Everyone we met was very supportive and we left with a very positive impression of the place.</p>
<p>I wouldn't base my view on just one opinion, but would seek out as many as I could get.</p>
<p>You are right to seek out other opinions. I'm sorry you had an unpleasant visit, but as in life, you can't always expect people to tell you what you want to hear.</p>
<p>Remember it is the gloom period at West Point...grey, dreary, add someone sick, roommate problems... All those things happen and are amplified by the stresses of being a cadet (and being Plebes I assume you were rooming with). Being female, the roommate options are limited in a company and can lead to unhappiness...you might have caught a little glimpse of that in action.</p>
<p>I have heard cadets many times tell high school kids "Please don't come here". Some are very unhappy. Some leave, some stick it out...and sticking it out doesn't have to mean they like it, they just learn to focus on what gets them through the day. Some had no idea they would be unhappy at West Point when they were waiting so eagerly for that green folder. But it's how they choose to deal with that unhappiness that is important.</p>
<p>Also the level of unhappiness ebbs and flows depending on lots of variables: each class year has goods/bads, grades (lots of cadets are shocked at how difficult it is to get the same grades they did in high school), some do not get involved in activities that get them AWAY from WP, some don't seek help when they need it (mentally, physically and academically), and some thought loving West Point since they were old enough to say "BEAT NAVY!" would make it all okay. Even the prior service cadets are often unhappy enough to leave. It happens.</p>
<p>It's easy to love the pageantry, the traditions, the uniforms, the parades, the ideals, but even as parents we can never understand completely what it is like without being a cadet. We've had a close association with WP over the years and now have our own cadets....but I would never assume for one minute that I REALLY understand what it is like. So, for you, and others making the decision to attend, these visits are important because you get an inside view, even if only for an overnight. The visit can be an eye-opener but that can be a good thing!</p>
<p>When we get the phone calls (and I would be shocked if a parent of a cadet posted on this board that they NEVER got a "I hate this place" phone call from their son/daughter) the one thing I never say to them is "Oh, it can't be that bad!" ;-) It can be. But how the person moves on from the "I hate this place" day to the next day (or hour or minute) is what matters.</p>
<p>Sounds like you caught your hosts on a pretty serious "I hate this place" weekend. But you obviously spoke to others who were managing and finding things that excite and inspire them. The fact that you didn't get paired with a "Happy Plebe" (there are some!), is unfortunate, but in reality, this might end up being a blessing. You saw this weekend the reality of how it can AND WILL BE on any given Sunday. It's your decision whether you want to step in and deal with it when your time comes....and it will.</p>
<p>Ideally, it would have been nice for your host to step out of her temporary misery and realize the impact her moods were having on you...but she's young and she's learning. My guess is she wouldn't have volunteered to host a candidate in the first place if she wasn't having some positive experiences. When it's your turn to host...you'll remember.</p>
<p>Your parents will be told this is a roller coaster ride. I get so tired of that expression but unfortunately it applies. There are huge peaks and valleys and frankly, the valleys are painful and tough when they happen (notice I didn't say IF they happen). :-) </p>
<p>I'd say, based on your experience this weekend, you are ahead of the game. Better now, in the next weeks, to have a chance to really think the decision through. My bet is next year you won't be surprised when you have a "I hate this place" day (week, month). You'll say "I knew this would happen at some point", remember why you made the decision that got your there, and move on. No one likes unpleasant surprises and now...you won't be surprised! :-)</p>
<p>Good luck!</p>
<p>Wow, nova07, what a thoughtful post. Thanks so much - much to chew on.</p>
<p>I realize that I don't have much clout on a subject such as this, but I have an experience worth mentioning.
At our churches biweekly CCD meeting, we had a parishoner come in that had fought in Iraqi Freedom. He was noticably nervous and even said that it was the first time he had talked about his time in Iraq. He talked about all the discomfort and suffering that accompanied being deployed in the desert, the stress of driving what amounted to a bomb-on-wheels (he was with a refueling Reserve unit), the mixed reactions from locals, and he even hinted at the fact that he had once been forced to shoot someone while manning a convoy's machine gun. In all, he was there for 13 months! What really floored me, though, was his answer to the "would you do it again if you could go back in time" question. After a little thought he confidently said yes. Now, I know West Point is tough, but if this soldier can endure that and come out a better person for it I'll definitely try my luck at USMA.</p>
<p>uh wow...thanks. I'm totally going to visit there so I could make a choice. It sounds like it is a lot different than what I see of pictures of smiling cadets in the West Point pamplets, brochures, and prospectus.</p>
<p>Hey everyone, thanks so much for the replies! I guess in a way this visit was a good thing, if you know what the worst is like then you can expect it. I've been told that Academies are great because they can give you the highest highs, but they are tough because they give you the very lowest lows. The cadets I was with were definitley going through a rough time, and I wish them the best. I guess I've got a lot of thinking ahead of me! I've also got to do a lot of talking with my parents!</p>
<p>Hey there, soccer. Don't worry - it's a good idea to seek other opinions, although visiting is a good idea. A lot of cadets say silly things when visitors are around. Some try to make it seem like West Point is a lot worse than it actually is. Granted, it is not the most fun place in the world, but personally, I have never hated it enough to consider quiting. If you want to join the Army, and if you stay positive and focused, then sure, you will definitely hate West Point some times, but you know it will be worth it in the end. :) </p>
<p>Don't listen to the people who said not to come because they hate it here so much. Unfortunately, being at West Point around other cadets can lead to a cynicism that is hard to avoid. If you truly want to come here, then by all means, don't let a few pessimists get you down!</p>
<p>Good luck with your decision process. It's up to you, and that's great that you're going through the steps to see what's your best option. If you have any questions or anything, feel free to send me a message, and I'd be glad to help out.</p>
<p>Thought I'd better resurrect an old thread instead of restarting one on the same topic...</p>
<p>soccer1458: I guess the stars just moved for me (haha, no I don't believe in astrology). I had my visit this past weekend and the cadets seemed in generally high spirits. I got an entirely different perspective. Most things were given to me in a positive view (granted that there are troubles with roommates if you don't talk them out, people will get cranky and tired--a given, of course, guys who think girls should not go military, the usual, etc.). (I think the only negative thing on my trip was that I'm really not used to cold weather, but it wasn't really that bad.)</p>
<p>On my second day a guy came up to me with his words of wisdom (along these lines):</p>
<p>So, have a lot of cadets been telling you to not come here? (Not really, just one guy in the mail room shouted, "Don't do it!" and smiled, but that's it.) Well, a lot of cadets will say it's a terrible place to be and that it sucks, and it does have its rough times, but it's really a great place to be. It's not as bad as some people say, but it's definitely the place to be if you want a challenge. It's difficult, but it's not impossible. Well, I hope you'll make the right decision. It's a tough one to make.</p>
<p>Yeah, so...good luck to all of us trying to make that decision! (Army or Marines?)</p>
<p>dictatoranna,</p>
<p>I'm so pleased that your visit was a positive experience. I think one of the challenges any cadet at West Point will encounter is preventing the negatives becoming the focus of the experience. You could drown in them. There will be positives also. You'll have to recognize them when they occur and remember them for those gloomy days.</p>
<p>Last year somebody suggested writing a letter to yourself. The letter should include all the reasons you really want to attend a service academy. Then seal it and give it to your parents to mail to you during the summer. You may need the reminder sometime in late July. ;)</p>
<p>I like that suggestion. Getting my son to write a letter to himself now.....
I don't think he will see the wisdom it in. Who knows, he has surprised me how committed he is to reaching this goal. :)</p>
<p>Dictatoranna, I'm jealous! My visit everyone told me not to go there. Haha, but I have figured out that having a slightly bad experience there was a good thing because it allowed me to realize that West Point isn't perfect, but it is a wonderful place. Now that I know that, I'm trying to decide if I would like life afterwards in the army. Its between there and the Coast Guard! Good luck to anyone trying to make the decision. Dictatoranna, I'm really really glad that your visit went well! Good luck with everything, I appreciate the post.</p>
<p>lol, welcome to West Point during the winter, soccer. Wow... It's hard to explain. I've had SO many ups and downs. There have been times when I was ready to throw in the towel. I started my application to another school, had talked with the ROTC people, was ready to go. I was incredibly depressed. But since then, it's gotten better. You'll hit the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. You'll hate it, but then there will be those fleeting occasions, very rare, but still there, when you'll love it. One thing I can promise you is this--you WILL be challenged, one way or another. I have been challenged in a MANY ways. The key here is self-esteem and confidence. If you let yourself get down and don't pull yourself out of it, you'll get bitter. I've had it happen twice, but luckily I've managed to make it out. The Plebe guys are, for the most part, jerks. You'll hear and see 100 times more than you ever wanted to--take the majority of girls out of the picture, and guys get weird. Plus, for the most part, Plebe guys haven't yet gained the maturity to see Plebe girls as really being female. That will change in a year or two, as they begin to see them in civilian clothes and just being normal. </p>
<p>The whole "Don't do it thing" is half real and half fake. I was told that a million times last year, but I still came anyways. I do it to candidates that come this year (the randomly shouting thing like the guy in the mailroom). If you'll notice, it's only Plebes who do it. All it is is a bunch of young guys and girls wishing that they still had the freedom that you Candidates do. We miss it, and that's what you're seeing. There are those Plebes that actually mean it, but for the most part, none of us would ever actually leave. </p>
<p>Yes, there are other ways into the Army, but I believe without a doubt that the training and opportunities available to us here as compared to ROTC is twenty times better. Like I said, that's what I like about this place. There are things I love, and things I hate. It'll be the same for you. You'll get a weird sense of humor. A lot of stupid things will be hysterically funny. You'll learn to entertain yourself. You start to figure out who you really are--what your strengths are, what your weaknesses are. I don't know, I can't explain it. Life IS much harder for girls here, but you'll come out so strong. All I can tell you is to have confidence in yourself, and have confidence in your decision. If you have any specific questions, shoot me a PM. I'm curious--what Company did you stay in, and what were the first and last initials of the girl?</p>
<p>Oooh, just read about your debate between USCGA and USMA--just so you know, USCGA is more hardcore than here when it comes to hazing. They're the worst, actually, and really hard on their Plebes or whatever they call them.</p>
<p>I think I got a sense of the "girls becoming very strong" thing, during my brief stay during SLS. The 1st platoon leader was a cheerleader (and not too bad looking, either, but thats beside the point), but there was something about her that told you, "I'm not here to play games. Do your job right and I won't prove how pathetic you are." This just made it all the weirder when I saw a picture of in a cheerleader uniform and kevlar helmet. I suppose all of the upperclassmen will take on that "drill sergeant" aloofness during our plebe year, though, and we won't figure out that they actually have personalities until yuk year.</p>
<p>Eh, not true at all. You'll see a lot of personality during the Academic Year. HOWEVER, most of the girls are much harder to get a true picture of personality, because if you show too much or get too friendly with the guys, they oftentimes will take it the wrong way. You have to be strong, but at the same time, you still want to be female. It's a hard thing to balance, but I'm slowly figuring it out.</p>
<p>Sorry about the misconception. I haven't even figured out civilian girls, so I'm a long ways from cracking the "West Point feminine mystique." ;)</p>
<p>lol, I don't care!! I wouldn't expect you to know how it is here, yet. :)</p>
<p>Marines4me,
Your post above mirrors our daughter's experience so far as well. She hit that "wall" about a week and a half ago and pulled herself out of it within a day or so.
As far as boys, she mentioned one wanted to "cadate" her and her only comment to me was "Dad, there is no time for boys right now!" The pressure on the women to perform at a high level is certainly there, and I am sure that having a female First Captain this year is a real validation for the other "minority" at West point. Thus far she has shown a real hesitation to go to what few Plebe dances there have been and that sentiment seems to reflect a general desire for a lot of the women at West Point to guard their reputation. Her main source of satisfaction is still proving to herself that she can keep up with the rest of her class militarily, physically, and academically. So far so good.</p>