You should drag your kid to Colleges that Change Lives

<p>I’ve looked at the CTCL website but I haven’t read the book or gone to one of their seminars. Since I fully admit I haven’t done my research, nobody has to answer this, but I’m just wondering: who decides which colleges are included in the CTCL list and which are not? It’s obviously a great promotional tool, whatever else it is, so I’m sure there are other colleges who would like to be on that list, and I’m wondering what the criteria are for choosing the colleges.</p>

<p>We attended one of the tours, back when Mr Pope was alive.
What an interesting guy!
It was a refreshing change from the convention sized college fair.
Oldest did attend one of the CTCL, and loved it so much that she still lives in the neighborhood, 13 yrs later!</p>

<p>The author of the book decided when he wrote it. I think the most important take away is that there are many many mid-tier LAC’s that have a lot to offer student and that those schools are often overlooked. For many kids they can be the sweet spot of selectivity, personal attention, opportunities and merit $$$. The schools that were included in the book have turned it into a marketing tool, but to the parent and student they can be seen more as a type than a be all and end all definitive list. </p>

<p>I used CTCL as a starting point rather than a definitive list of LAC’s. I was familiar with large research universities and the better known top LACs but they weren’t going to work for my daughter. I didn’t expect colleges that could change her life (in a good way) were limited to the ones in the book or college fair - never took it that literally. Rather, it was an approach that took me far beyond the usual top whatever emphasizing prestige and name brands. I started looking at those dreaded lower tiered schools and found several gems.</p>

<p>Good and bad experiences can happen at any university regardless of rank, size, LAC or research, with adjuncts or tenured professors. </p>

<p>D put Hampshire on her preliminary list because a cousin with similar learning style and interests had attended. After talking to the rep at the CTCL fair for a solid ten minutes, the school came off her list. She was able to determine that it would not be a good place for her.</p>

<p>Dustypig, I think the original 40 CTCL colleges were chosen because they were all small colleges with high quality programs, but off of the radar for college admissions and thus very easy for students to get admitted. They were great options for kids who were B and C students in high school but looking for a good quality college education – but not candidates for Ivy League. Plus, I think that there was an effort to provide a good geographical range, as in those days most of the colleges were drawing students regionally rather than nationally-- after all, no one had ever heard of most of them.</p>

<p>But I think things changed and while the CTCL colleges remain strong schools and good options for many, they are no longer the “value” schools they once were. With high-stakes, highly competitive college admissions, the schools have increasingly been used as safeties by highly qualified applicants, and admissions for all has become tougher and less predictable. With skyrocketing tuition costs, the schools are also now financially out of reach for many of the kids who would have been the target audience for the original books, as the CTCL schools generally don’t promise to meet full need, and with their increased name recognition and popularity, their financial aid dollars may be diverted toward high-stat students being offered generous merit aid. </p>

<p>I still think that he CTCL book & college fairs are useful to help kids and parents recognize that they have many excellent choices outside the Ivy League and state flagships, and to give them a sense of what other programs or offerings they might look for in general. Plus I think it’s nice to have a college fair where kids can talk to admissions officers without the dominant focus being on test scores and admission “chances”. I mean – it was nice for my daughter to be able to have a conversation with the Goucher rep knowing that she was talking about a college that would almost definitely accept her if she applied. (It was a top choice for her after CTCL, but dropped from her list after an overnight – she actually realized that she needed a larger school.)</p>

<p>So I think that CTCL could easily be re-titled, “Good Colleges that you might have Overlooked” – which would be a lot more accurate, but probably a lot harder to market. </p>

<p>In a wish I knew then what I know now, I’d have guided my older D to a “good college that you might have overlooked.” The CTCLs and CTCL-like colleges offer something rare in my POV: residential communities, guidance for grad school and career, and a more personalized teaching approach, be it adjunct or full time professor. My younger is headed to a local LAC so I cannot speak from experience – yet. However, my older D’s state university is good but it’s a commuter school and not the experience she’d hoped for although her degree program is excellent. I’d recommend going to a CTCL-like school for undergrad and then a research U – public or private – for grad school. </p>

<p>I read the book when S’12 was applying and thought it very useful in terms of what to look at and think about when evaluating schools. I didn’t necessarily agree with everything Mr. Pope said, but I thought it was worth considering.</p>

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<p>@shawnspencer - to be fair when Loren Pope wrote the CTCL book Antioch WAS accredited. It shut down for a few years and only recently re-opened.</p>

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<p>This is it, in a nutshell. And I agree that there are many similar schools not on the list that fit the same criteria.</p>

<p>calmom, I think your point about need and the changes in the schools’ ability to serve the original audience over the years is important. I think more and more these colleges are attracting either a) financially comfortable parents of B students and b) financially less comfortable parents of high-achieving students who have other options at greater cost. My son’s CTCL school certainly has this mix. I would also add that more of the smaller schools are landing on the radar of international students, especially those from China’s fast-growing middle class.</p>

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<p>Perhaps “good college that you might have overlooked” may include (for those looking for LAC type schools) some of the schools listed here: <a href=“http://www.coplac.org/members/”>http://www.coplac.org/members/&lt;/a&gt; . It does appear to be a common assumption on these forums that a LAC is necessarily private and expensive. Some of the public LACs are very low cost for their in-state students, and some of them are low cost even for out-of-state students.</p>

<p>Most accredited schools can be a Chevy, a Cadillac, a Mercedes, or a Bentley… and it is up to the student to “choose the car” so to speak. </p>

<p>My SIL was a big fan. Her oldest went to St. John’s, he’s got a job now based on high school experiences. His wife (same school) was laid off and has been working as a waitress for the last six months. They graduated two years ago. My son of the same year has been employed since graduation. Their daughter who also went to a small LAC, is managing a stable - no surprise she’s been into horses forever. The daughter with the great job studied engineering at the State U. </p>

<p>We didn’t look at any of the CTCL, totally inappropriate for older son’s interests, and younger son refused to look at anything smaller than his high school. (He did apply to Vassar just in case, but in the end decided that it was too small - it was smaller than his high school.) </p>

<p>Sally305 hit the nail on the head. A high stats kid can do very well with merit and need aid at many CTCL schools. My D is at one that prides itself on ROI. It hasn’t “changed her life” in the sense that she would have been a completely different kid otherwise or she had some amazing turnaround in study and work habits, but it has been an amazingly positive experience socially and academically so far.</p>

<p>@ucbalumnus: Most of the public LACs don’t have the small size or the alumni outcomes of the better private LACs.</p>

<p>New College of Florida is an exception and a gem (and a steal for FL residents who aren’t interested in CS/engineering).</p>

<p>NM Mining and Tech is engineering/tech-focused, but also has a small size and impressive alumni outcomes. It’s also has pretty reasonable OOS tuition rates.</p>

<p>One caution.
If your child has been attending private boarding/ prep schools with a carefully selected student body, they may be attracted to a similar setting for college.
But it might be better, to have a bit more of a mix of people on campus. More of a socio- economic and academic mix, so that they can get to know a broader range of students.
Otherwise they run the risk of believing their own press.</p>

<p>Rhodes College is not in the “arts district” of Memphis. It’s actually in a super shady area. Just putting that out there.</p>

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<p>What kind of personal attention are we talking about?
If we’re talking about counseling for troubled students, it may be true that some huge state universities do have better services than some CTCL schools. Ditto, perhaps, if we’re talking about tutoring for students who need remedial work. If your kid has special needs, by all means look closely at counseling/disability or other services related to the need. </p>

<p>If we’re talking about a high level of student-faculty academic engagement for a typical kid, then look at class sizes, senior thesis requirements, or (to the extent you can observe it on campus visits) the quality of classroom discussion and the frequency of writing assignments. If that kind of academic engagement is what we’re talking about, then I think the CTCL schools (and other LACs) tend significantly to out-perform most huge state universities (especially in the first two years of instruction or in the most popular majors.) </p>

<p>^^I agree with this tk, the small colleges can have a high level of student-faculty academic engagement but no professor or college administrator at any traditional large or small college or uni is there to act as a surrogate parent and I do agree a large university, especially those with a medical school have far more resources for a mentally or emotionally challenged student than a small school in a non-metro area.</p>

<p>My older son will be a senior at a CTCL school - it’s been the perfect place for him. He’s really enjoyed the close contact with faculty and has a circle of like-minded friends. My son does have special needs - he is deaf and has suffered from depression. We’ve found the smaller school to be very supportive on both counts. He was sick and missed a class one day this past semester and his professor, knowing about his issues, actually checked up on him. I really appreciate that. But I would also say he’s an excellent advocate for himself and I know that would help wherever he’d ended up. My younger son very nearly ended up at a CTCL school as well but chose a different college (also a small LAC). He too is deaf and has found the combination of smaller classes and the fact that professors and staff at his college are willing and happy to accommodate to be “just right”. </p>

<p>"Most accredited schools can be a Chevy, a Cadillac, a Mercedes, or a Bentley… and it is up to the student to “choose the car” so to speak. " - Many top kids will refuse to choose based on what others will think while somebody is in one of these, they just “test drive” and choose that place that feels “at home” for them and will be very happy ans satisfied there and have great memories for the rest of their lives. Why? Becasue smart and mature will NOT care a bit about opinion of others, if Chevy fits, or for that matter a bicycle, it is fine with them. And they found whole bunch of kids there who are thinking in the same way and who have similar stats and ohter interests. All these choosing based on the brand is very superficial and really belong with choosing car much more than choosing UG. </p>