Your kid wants to major in something you can't seem them doing in a million years!

Parents Forum
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<p>" Is anyone saying that by virtue of reaching the the point of graduating high school, kids will not need any help making college application decisions, beyond some finite dollar amount? If not, then there most be some continuum of help, and perhaps itvaries with what you know about your kid. Personally, I can’t imagine going so far as to chose my childs major, and yet I CAN imagine refusing to pay for anything more than a community college, even if I could afford it, if my kid had not demonstrated the behaviors that think it takes to succed as a college student."</p>

<p>I hope there’s no one here who really thinks that young adults don’t need guidance for a while. If so, I fear that whoever thinks that is setting themselves up for disappointment.</p>

<p>H and I wouldn’t even pay for community college for younger S after he almost flunked out of high school senior year. We did, though, co-sign some hefty loans so he could go to the college of his choice after a gap year, and he’s now a junior and dean’s list student. :)</p>

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<p>Hi Shrinkrap - sorry you find the language extreme, I only meant “fail” in the context of not having the child ready to make these kinds of decisions for themselves. It does get to the heart of what POIH and Baelor take as positions (although to be fair to Baelor usually more theoretically inclined), and that is all I meant. In other ways, a parent may not have “failed” at all aspects by any means, but we are talking about something very specific here, so that is how I meant it. An 18 year old should be able to make a decision on where to attend college given various inputs and advice, including financial constraints.</p>

<p>I would say, in regards to your last sentence,

This is what I like about the American system as it usually is found at most universities. They don’t really have to “be ready” when they send in their applications, they get a couple of years of key growth and exploration to decide. Being away from home for that time is hugely maturing for most students. I can attest to that with a couple of personal anecdotes, but I hope we can take it as a given. Some students go off the deep end when they are away, but most grow up a lot.</p>

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<p>You bring up some very valid issues. If you can be helpful to your child in choosing schools, that is great. Some parents that have never been to college quite often cannot help with those kinds of specifics. Hopefully they will get solid advice from various sources, as one would hope people do throughout their lives if they are not highly informed on important choices. Of course knowing your kid is a very big deal too, but the fact that it is impossible to predict exactly how a child will react to different environments makes that a very inexact science, as all this is. As far as saying you might not pay for anything beyond community college even if you could afford it, that is a personal choice you are free to make, as I have said. I would just hope your child knew that well before senior year of high school.</p>

<p>I have said many times on other threads that I don’t think any school is worth $200,000 more than other, highly qualified schools. The context of this was the choice of going to a somewhat less “prestigous” school on full scholarship or a highly prestigious one paying full fare. This obviously is a continuum and when it becomes “worth it” ($30K more? $50K? $0?) is an individual choice based on a family’s financial situation and sense of financial value. But if the family is worth millions and $200K is “pocket change”, then fine. Send them anywhere, or still choose not to pay that much, or at all. These are all valid decisions, although they vary in morality from my point of view, but that is just me. But I think there is no morality involved in basic financial capabilities and taking on that kind of debt. Going into significant debt for a child’s college education (and again, what is significant is relative to your circumstances and comfort level) is just not a good idea I don’t think. Northstarmom saw it differently and decided, in conjunction with her son, that taking on that much debt was worth it. I can understand their decision and am thrilled it seems to be working out so well, though I imagine there is anxiety over starting ones career with that much debt already. There are very fine educations to be had at schools that are affordable, and of course I don’t know what “hefty” represents.</p>

<p>I hope I was clear on this.</p>

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<p>And again I say…Baelor…you are a student, not a parent. You are going to a mighty expensive and highly competitive school which is wonderful. I hope it is either in keeping with what YOUR parents wanted you to do…or that you were able to make your OWN decision about matriculating at that school.</p>

<p>In the meantime, I say again…I do believe your perspective will change when you become a parent. It’s always nice to be able to project what you think should BE until you really get there.</p>

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<p>“I hope it is either in keeping with what YOUR parents wanted you to do…or that you were able to make your OWN decision about matriculating at that school.”</p>

<p>The answer is both. I don’t think I’ve ever wanted to do something that my parents have not also wanted, so we are in perfect accord almost all of the time.</p>

<p>That being said, they would cut off my college tuition if I wanted to major in Art History probably, and they would certainly stop paying if I adopted a lifestyle of which they disapproved. Changing religions, for example.</p>

<p>"Frankly, and I don’t mean this in a confrontational way so don’t be insulted, your statements are so absolutist, internally contradictiory and silly that they really cannot be responded to any longer. "</p>

<p>They’re actually not. They’re not absolutist at all–I’m arguing for relativism in this case. I laid everything out for you, so you can either point out these alleged inconsistencies, or stop making ridiculous and unsupported claims.</p>

<p>“Choosing not to let money control is just an example of money controlling? You are right, I am not smart enough to understand that. Maybe in the rarified air of academia that makes sense.”</p>

<p>I guess if you want to consider yourself stupid, I’m not going to argue with that. But the ability to choose how much control to exert is a choice on the part of the financial backer. In other words, at every point thy have total agency over the money–the definition of control. The decision not to micromanage the funds is still a decision over which the payer has total control. Whether or not he subsequently exerts control does not mean that he didn’t have control at a prior time, and also doesn’t mean that he doesn’t have control now.</p>

<p>In other words, a parent paying could theoretically cut the support. The fact that this choice even exists means control lies with the parent. </p>

<p>“Experience and values of the culture in question tells us which ones of those are acceptable and which are not, not some equation or set of “facts”.”</p>

<p>Which is why I asked you whether you viewed college funding as a moral issue or a mtte of personal preference. If it is the former, then there is a strong historical precedent for having your viewpoint be applied to everyone from your perspective. If it is the latter, then forming judgments of others on this issue is in line with forming judgments based on favorite dessert, by definition. So how do you view paying for college?</p>

<p>" I know you think that is condescending or dismissive, but it is not. This is an area, as millions can tell you, where you have no idea until you are in it."</p>

<p>I’m not offended. I’m surprised you would feel justified in making a conjecture about me, but when one realizes that such claims are indicators of extreme arrogance I guess it makes sense.</p>

<p>I’m also factoring in my parents’ opinions here–it’s not only my perspective.</p>

<p>I would not restrict my child’s major, but I would not think that parents who do are horrible. Clearly, you do because that is all I have been saying, and you have been arguing with me about this issue the whole time. I still don’t think we are even talking about the same issue.</p>

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<p>A conjecture. You are a freshman at Princeton and you think it is conjecture on my part that you don’t have children? I realize it is possible, but the odds are so low based on everything you have said I think it is hardly conjecture. And you certainly couldn’t have any old enough for you to have any insight as a parent into the issues being discussed. But please, tell me I am wrong.</p>

<p>Just another example, I am afraid. The part about those who have the money controlling when they choose not to control is hilarious. Of course they have control over how much they try to control the other person, that isn’t what we were talking about. Just hilarious.</p>

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<p>Fallenchemist, start thinking before posting. That way I won’t be able to dismantle your posts effortlessly on a factual basis, as I am about to do now.</p>

<p>1). Clearly the conjecture was your statement on how I view your claim about my not having children; this statement was extremely presumptuous – you don’t know how I would respond because you are not me. So please don’t claim that you do, as you did in your previous post. I’m sorry that you’re not very good at inference or at reading, but that’s another issue altogether.</p>

<p>2). Someone said money doesn’t have to control. I said that the choice to exercise further control indicates control, i.e. agency is control. It was an objective discussion. So you acknowledge the only point that I was trying to make.</p>

<p>Man, it’s really funny when you ignore the substance in my posts in order to focus on tangential issues. What’s even more amusing is that you fail miserably at even that.</p>

<p>I think that it’s time to take this to PM unless you are able to stay on topic at least vaguely.</p>

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<p>You already made it clear you think I am being condescending and dismissive in other posts, so that wasn’t conjecture either. Since you had already addressed that before, I had to assume you meant the part about having children. I guess you don’t remember what you said in other posts. Not to mention that you leave out the key first part of the statement and so change the entire context. What I actually said was “Also, to be quite frank, this would make more sense to discuss once you have kids. I know you think that is condescending or dismissive, but it is not. This is an area, as millions can tell you, where you have no idea until you are in it.” So the subject was you not having kids, not whether or not you would find it dismissive. At the very least you were less than clear.</p>

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The definition of control over what? The money? Then yes, how obvious can a point be? Over the person? Hardly, that is the entire debate.</p>

<p>I think that pretty directly addresses things, as I have every time. BTW, do not PM me. I have no interest in talking to you that way and clogging up my inbox.</p>

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<p>But for the sake of ending this, let me try something:</p>

<p>Topic: Should paying for college give a parent the right to determine what their child majors in at college.</p>

<p>My position: A parent has the right to pay none, some, or all of a child’s college education. If they choose to pay, there are certain expectations they can have in the spirit of the money being used wisely. Among these, for most people I believe, would be that the child makes solid progress towards a degree, does not get high on drugs or drink excessively (never for some parents, infrequently for others), and keeps their nose relatively clean (don’t get arrested for felonies, commit infractions that get you kicked out of school and the like). I do not believe they have the right to choose a major for that child, or even veto a major, as I think the right of self-determination is a fundamental right. Therefore this decision by the student should not be a basis for them deciding not to pay. Trying to use money as a source of power to make demands over fundamental aspects of their child’s life at this stage of their life is reprehensible, in my view. It also goes to why, since a university education is usually very expensive, the parents are obligated to make their views on this known to the child as early as possible, but at the very latest at the beginning of high school so that student can plan accordingly.</p>

<p>This is not something that can be absolutely said is right or wrong in the sense that 1+1=2, but has to be viewed through the prism of the right of a person in our modern society to become whatever they want.</p>

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<p>jym626 #177 and owlice #178:</p>

<p>As stated before as a parent it is our duty to inform children of our concern about safety. We informed DD about Yale and U. Penn safety concerns. We didn’t make any decision prior to our visit to both these places. After visiting the two places we as a family discussed the surrounding of the two colleges and let DD decide on whether to apply or not.</p>

<p>Not all children are same why it is difficult to digest that DD made the decision to not apply to Yale and U. Penn. She didn’t like the town of New Haven and Philadelphia while she really liked NYC, and Cambridge/Boston. She seems to be gravitating towards working at these two cities too.</p>

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<p>POH, I think their point was that when you say you won’t pay for School X or Y, but will move heaven and earth (or yourself and your spouse) for School A or B, you have effectively taken the decisionmaking process out of your child’s hands.</p>

<p>What if her #1 choice school was Yale, despite your concerns about the surrounding community? Would you allow her the autonomy of her decision?</p>

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<p>Sorry, POIH, but I think you’re back-pedaling. “Yale and U Penn were the two college we wrote off for our daughter last year after visiting as we didn’t like the locations.” You wrote the schools off… that is NOT the same as making your safety concerns known to your D and letting her decide whether to apply, as you are now claiming.</p>

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<p>Two students from our northeastern HS went to Arizona for college. Both had parents who were not fond of their choice, but let them go anyway. One parent was concerned with the party reputation of the school. The other was very concerned about their daughter’s distance from home and how expensive/ difficult it woud be for her to come home other than for Christmas break.</p>

<p>Both parents barely mentioned their concerns to their daughters because they tended to have a laid back and “let’s be friends” parenting style. They did talk about their concerns to other parents, though.</p>

<p>So now, a year later, both girls are home. One flunked out and was a heavier partier. She is now going to community college. The other really missed her family and felt the expense of going to an out of state school was too high. So she is in debt for over $25K and her friend has to deal with having flunked out of college.</p>

<p>To me, this all could have been avoided if the parents inserted some control over their daughter’s decisions. If saying, “I won’t pay for it!” is their strongest weapon, then in my opinion parents should use it. I am a believer in letting kids make mistakes, but some are costly and can be avoided with a combination of being forthright with an opinion and exerting some boundaries.</p>

<p>As for the controlling what major to have, I guess that is up to each parent. I am not a big believer in the idea that what we study in school outlines our career path and life. But if i felt my child had totally unrealistic goals, I would say someithing and try to guide them to have several options.</p>

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<p>My vote is that if I am paying over $200K (rather painfully, I might add) that I have a voice. But maybe not make the choice–have some input. My son is changing his major from computer science (practically a guaranteed job from this school) to economics/possible cs minor…after less than 3 months. He went to the best computer science school he could have possibly attended, specifically for cs. I initially thought, what the crap? How many jobs in economics are there EVER going to be in this economy?</p>

<p>But I saw his passion, realized he has been fascinated with this for a long time (and not cs)…and shut my mouth. Randomly, this school is very good in economics also, so it was a really lucky choice for him. But I don’t think that initially we would have been completely behind it if there wasn’t the appeal of the job prospect.</p>

<p>If he would have been interested in a liberal art or teaching, I would have said forget it. Go to a cheaper college, because it is so much more money than you can comprehend. I guarantee you, if he was paying for it himself, he would have gone to the local community college!</p>

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<p>Of course you were being condescending and dismissive, or at least I found you to be. However, in relation to that particular incident, you had no idea of knowing how I would respond. I wasn’t offended, and so your conjecture (i.e. any assumption, which this was because I never laid out my feeling on THAT STATEMENT) was false, and offensive. Please don’t assume you know how I feel. Thank you.</p>

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<p>Of course I do. But just because I feel something regarding a specific instance or post doesn’t mean that I will feel that way about everything you say. I’m surprised you’re not making much sense here, frankly – you seem to be the one slamming me for laughable statements.</p>

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<p>You are so funny. I didn’t take it out of context. In fact, I cut the entire previous part of your statement out so there would be NO ambiguity so as to the topic of my response, i.e. your statement that I would consider your other claim patronizing. I wasn’t even arguing that my perspective is limited because I don’t have kids – I agree wholeheartedly. In other words, not only was I clear, I couldn’t be clearer – I literally cut out everything that I wasn’t responding to, and you STILL assumed I was referring to that. I don’t know what else I can do here.</p>

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<p>That’s a good question – given that you argued that very point in post 179. I would think that it would be obvious, but clearly you disagree.</p>

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<p>I don’t understand this – you are basing your position here on “certain expectations” without clearly defining the limitations of them. From the point of view of anyone who has a differing opinion on the issue, why should they accept these “expectations” over others in particular? Would changing political beliefs count as one? I know, for example, that my parents would pull the money plug in a heartbeat if I changed the core values in which my family believes. Why? Because otherwise they would implicitly supporting the development of these opinions, which they may consider deeply wrong on an ethical level, if I make it clear to them that I will be using the college as a way to develop these beliefs. I assume you would consider this mindset wrong as well. However, I don’t see a convincing reason why it should be considered universally wrong, or why the “clean nose” criterion should be considered universally right. In other words, I actually do find these criteria completely arbitrary, since I honestly have no idea whence they came. </p>

<p>This is actually the basis for my larger question – Is this an issue that each individual family needs to make, or is it simply a matter of right and wrong?</p>

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<p>Voila. However, self-determination is an interesting word to use here when this individual with agency in your mind is still a financial dependent. So, if I understand you, the person paying does not have a right to make sure the money is spent in a way that is acceptable to him once he has chosen to pay at all? I see that as a general but accurate restatement of your position. I would then ask whether a restriction on major could be placed up front, and what reasoning you have for this – you touched on this briefly and never really fleshed it out.</p>

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<p>I don’t view it as controlling the child’s life, though. I consider it placing boundaries on what acceptable uses of the money are. There is a huge difference, as they have different intents. One could easily consider your restrictions on drugs, alcohol, and crime as “demands over fundamental aspects.” One could do so because you haven’t established an empirical train of thought about why these aspects are fundamental and others aren’t.</p>

<p>I guess I’m failing to see why this isn’t a decision that should be left up to each individual family.</p>

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<p>^^^^^^Glad to see I am not the only one who woke up early and can’t get back to sleep…</p>

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<p>I thought it was obvious when I said self-determination I was referring to their life’s career, but OK I should have spelled it out for you. I refer you back to you comment about me not being able to make inferences.</p>

<p>Of course this is a decision that should be left up to each family. Never said otherwise, I cannot control what they do. There is no empirical formula for these things, I cannot believe anyone needed to say that from the start. As I said before, if you are looking for that formula, good luck. The lack of a formula doesn’t mean we don’t make decisions on right and wrong, OK and not OK, even if you call that arbitrary.</p>

<p>Do you really think anyone (else) on here thinks this is anything but opinion? By the very nature of this site, everything I said is my opinion of what is right, not law. This really is my last post on here about this, because those kinds of statements by you make this discussion useless.</p>

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<p>Why, was someone here advocating passage of a law making it a felony to pay for one school and not the other, or making it a felony to say “boo” about your child’s major?
Of course it GETS to be left up to each individual family, since it’s a free country. Of course each family GETS to decide how much they are willing to spend on college, what schools they’ll fund and not fund, what majors they’ll fund and not fund, etc.</p>

<p>That doesn’t mean I can’t have opinions about it. And I’ll have strong opinions, even though what another family does isn’t my business.</p>

<p>For example, as I mentioned upthread, I have nothing but scorn and contempt for the father I know who had his son work 3 jobs and sometimes go hungry in order to afford the top 20 school he’d gotten into, because father would rather spend his more-than-adequate salary on diamonds, furs and travel for his new girlfriends and deliberately drew a line in the sand that he’d only pay for Mediocre State U when this was a brilliant kid who deserved so much more. (And, father was a grad of two top-20 universities himself.) Of course it was his “decision,” but it was a scummy and disgusting one, and one that I needn’t respect.</p>

<p>There are schools out there (SMU and Arizona State are my “pet two”) where I wouldn’t pay for those schools for my kids in a million years, because I have very strong negative feelings about them based on experience, and I don’t see either of those schools as having redeeming factors in my mind.</p>

<p>OTOH, assuming they are going to a decent enough school, picking their <em>major</em>? I find that so incredibly intrusive. I find that the parents who want to pick their children’s major fall into two categories:

  1. First-gen college folks who are concerned about their kid being able to pay off debt and think that an accounting or nursing major is a “sure job” and don’t quite get the concept of majoring in classics or art history in the first place;
  2. Immigrant families who don’t think very creatively, and think that there is One Prescribed Path to Upper-Middle-Class-Hood, and that those paths go through (yawn, repeat after me) majoring in pre-med, pre-law, business or engineering, because the only possible jobs in the United States are physician, lawyer, businessperson, engineer, and everyone else is a fast-food worker. Ironically, they’d never let their kids major in music or education or physical education when they’ve often spent a fortune padding the coffers of music teachers, professional tutors and tennis coaches. </p>

<p>Baelor, I’m really sorry your parents are narrow enough in their thinking that they wouldn’t support you in (say) an art history major if you so desired. It’s unsophisticated thinking on their part. Of course it’s “their decision” since I’m not paying for your Princeton education, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think it’s pathetic.</p>

<p>And as for changing political beliefs? Again, there are shades of gray to everything. If my kids went from Democrat to Republican or libertarian? I wouldn’t refuse to pay for college. They get to hold their own political beliefs, even if they aren’t mine. If they became Nazi skinheads or KKK members? Well, yeah, I <em>would</em> pull funding, in a heartbeat. </p>

<p>Of course it’s based on values. Some of us value our children actually having a say in their futures instead of trotting dutifully along the path that mommy and daddy think is best to fulfill mommy and daddy’s needs to say that their son is a doctor or their daughter is a lawyer.</p>

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<p>You’re being disingenuous. Kid loves art, lives and breathes art, is enormously talented, art is a calling for him. Parent insists he’d better major in biology or chemistry in preparation for the med school that he’d better attend upon graduation. You don’t think that’s “controlling the child’s life”? Yeah, you can argue that kid can always draw on his own time. Indeed, but there’s value in pursuing one’s passions instead of just dutifully Being the Doctor Because Parent Wants to Brag That Kid is a Doctor. Such a situation is a recipe for depression and rebellion.</p>

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<p>Here’s the train of thought.<br>
Education is <em>always</em> a good / positive. Whether the major is exercise physiology, economics, biology, engineering or ancient Greek, there is nothing <em>bad</em> about any of these fields. They all lead to “good.” Some paths may wind up being more lucrative than others, but that’s only of concern to the small minds that define success as being about money. </p>

<p>Drugs/crime/etc are not goods/positives. At most they are neutral, and at worst they are really, really bad. </p>

<p>But go ahead and try to equate majoring in art hstory to frequent drug use, because they aren’t as “good” as majoring in economics and no drug use!</p>

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<p>Baelor, have you ever heard of the concept of … a gift? </p>

<p>If I give you a sweater, do I have the right to dictate that you wear it every Sunday, or only with the gray pants but never the black pants, or that you fold it neatly but only in your top right dresser drawer but never the left?</p>

<p>Now, if I see that you treat the sweaters I give you poorly (in the sense that you stomp on them and rip holes in them and use them as dishrags instead of in their reasonable intended use as a garment), I may decide not to buy you any more sweaters. But if I gave it to you as a gift, well, then … I don’t really control what you do with it.</p>

<p>I am giving my children an incredible gift by giving them education. It is up to them what they choose to do with it. If I see them “disrespecting” that gift (by which I mean drugs, crime, flunking out and not trying, partying instead of studying), then I can withdraw and not make any more “gifts.” But choosing art history instead of biology hardly is “disrespecting the gift” of a college education, any more than choosing spaghetti instead of chicken is “disrespecting the gift” of being taken out to dinner.</p>

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<p>“Being the Doctor Because Parent Wants to Brag That Kid is a Doctor”</p>

<p>NOT that I want my kid to be a doctor, but in my husbands extended, first gen, and immigrant family, it is more like…because even when no one else can find a job, even when others could discriminate against you because of your accent, or the color of your skin, even when people assume your stupid or shiftless for the same reasion, you can pretty much count on having a source of income, to take care of your children and extended family, and never have to ask the government for anything…this is the same extended family that pushes their children and grandchildren almost RELENTLESSLY in my opinion, as far as academics are concerned ( I am visiting with them this weekend…and they are Jamaican, NOT Asian), something I would NEVER do…self-determination and all that.</p>

<p>I am second generation btw, and that mantra faded a generation ago. Nothing wrong with asking the government in MY extended family…</p>