Interview with Kevin Carey, who criticizes many professional master’s programs as being more effective at burdening students with debt than anything else:
A page written by Carey in 2019 on the subject:
Most master’s programs are unfunded so they don’t cost much and are more profitable for the colleges to offer them. They generally have very limited value (except in maybe a few fields). Advanced undergraduate students could/would have taken the courses required of a master’s program (or even undertaken the research required of a thesis-based master’s program). Caltech, for example, doesn’t offer a standalone master’s program in any of its fields.
It depends on the program and the job skills attached to it. I don’t see the problem with a “for profit” university if the school is accredited and the program leads to better employment. Not everyone fits the mold of traditional university. It’s up to the individual to find out what degree program works for their circumstances.
Seems that in some schools, an MA/MS in a traditional academic field is often something that advanced undergraduates can continue on to after or concurrently with their BA/BS study, and/or is a step along the way to a PhD for PhD students.
But that seems to be different from the kind of programs under criticism here, which are expensive and may not lead to a significant advantage in entering the targeted profession, or the targeted profession is so competitive that most aspirants are unsuccessful at entering or progressing very far in it even if they have the desired educational credential.
Along the same lines is
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Great post. Most masters programs and JDs are
Profit centers for a university. Once they start losing money they are often shut down. A lot of these masters degrees are for those preparing to enter PhD programs where you work for the university on a meager stipen so professors can work ten hours a week. It is all so sordid and exploitative.
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In another current thread, a student is looking to apply to a master’s program in astrophysics. S/he apparently a) isn’t sure s/he is up to it, b) “money is the main issue”, and c) s/he appears not even sure how interested s/he is in the subject.
My D is in an Econ PhD program. It’s not unusual to see students get a masters to supplement their undergraduate coursework if, for example, they did not obtain an adequate math background, or had an unrelated major and need to take some intermediate level econ courses to present a credible application to the PhD program. International students often apply with a masters.
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Yes, I agree that a master’s degree may make sense in that particular situation (i.e. inadequate preparation/qualification as an undergraduate for the field the student wants to pursue further). It’s still costly though. Most international students also don’t know they can apply directly to a PhD program in US as an undergrad (because that’s not the standard practice in their own countries).
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The schools that offer concurrent MA/MS degrees, especially those without extra year of study, are primarily doing so to make their programs appear more attractive to some students. The MA/MS degrees make these students stand out from other students from the same colleges, but they don’t necessarily distinguish themselves when compared to students from other colleges without such concurrent MA/MS degrees.
My S just started econ PhD this year and I concur.
However, keep in mind that econ PhD admissions - particularly at top ranked programs - is very unusual with admit rates of 5% or less at the most desired schools.
US students with insufficient (or unimpressive grades in) undergrad econ and/or math coursework sometimes do MA/MS to fill holes in their academic backgrounds as well as to do work with known economists who could then write solid LORs which are an important part of the admissions package.
Most US applicants with solid undergrad econ and math backgrounds do predocs (2 year paid RA positions at top programs) or 2 year positions at the Fed prior to applying. Again, a major goal is to get solid recommenders who’s recommendations are respected by their colleagues on the admit coms at top programs. MA/MS followed by predoc or Central Bank is definitely more common among Int’l applicants, particularly those who did their undergrad at universities without a track record sending students on to top US programs.
Long story short, the econ PhD admissions process - along with med school and top Law schools - while interesting, doesn’t have much applicability to other academic fields.
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[quote] Most international students also don’t know they can apply directly to a PhD program in US as an undergrad (because that’s not the standard practice in their own countries).
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One issue is that U.S. PhD admissions committees can’t really assess very well the quality of an international student from either the transcripts or the letters from some countries and its a big commitment to bring one in especially if faculty or departments are expected to fund them. So they come get U.S. masters degrees and hopefully good letters of recommendation from faculty who might be known to PhD admissions committees. On the topic of econ grad programs, both UW Madison and UIUC have masters programs that pretty much exist for this purpose.
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I’ve noted several young people I know adding a one year masters to their initial 4 years in hopes of being more competitive in the job market. Most had undergraduate degrees in “softer” majors (not engineering!) All were at schools with good names/placement (i.e., Georgetown, Duke, ) so not a case of trying to “upgrade” the name on the their CV.
All were kids who could pay for it.
Not really sure in any case how they came to this decision but have also been curious about this trend.
There’s clearly a “demand” for such a degree, whether it’s from domestic or international students in situations described above. Otherwise the colleges wouldn’t be offering it. Even in some highly employable fields such as CS or engineering, some students still choose to pursue it in order to differentiate themselves from other graduates. However, there’re many more students who enrolled in such programs unnecessarily and uneconomically.
This is my understanding as well.
It is definitely a buyer beware marketplace.
In different sectors, there are jobs that require or prefer advanced professional degrees. I have seen peers spend way too much money on obtaining a Masters Degree from both “top brand” and very questionable no-brand institutions.
Usually they could find something close to home sponsored by their state flagship or a state consortium that provides good value and employers might even pay for.
I see value in professional masters degrees (non-PhD track) for mid-career folks who want to differentiate their skills for advancement or potentially shift sectors. They were not designed for undergrads to go right into with no job experience. They have no reference of on the job experience any times.
There are some that are by design a “fifth” year for engineering, education, etc…that is separate from these concerns.
People should compare actual costs and completion rates. And look for deals, there can be discounts for government or non-profit employees sometimes. It does not hurt to ask.
I agree with your advice- and would add one final step (in addition to comparing costs and completion rates)- do your homework to see if there are non-degree programs, or self-study certifications which can be completed on your own, while working, and substantially less cost.
I am a broken record on CC advising young people who are about to take on a bucket of debt for a Master’s in finance (some programs are highly reputable, others are merely cash cows for the institution) that they look at the CFA. Self-study, take the three part test. Boom- you are certified. Some parts of the program (level 2) are considered more rigorous than many Master’s in Finance program… There are all sorts of industry certifications that can give a candidate a boost without having to quit your job and go back to grad school.
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Absolutely!! Cornell actually has some that are a few thousand dollars that employers may actually pay for. No debt, career specific skills.
My daughter is in a MA program in a traditional subject (history). She is fully funded (at a low stipend for her TA duties). I’m fine with it because she didn’t give up a high paying job to return to school. She’s learning a lot and is happy. Why not do it? She’s planning ofnstudying and traveling in Europe next summer. More fun.
My nephew and his girlfriend both were in engineering and did masters immediately after undergrad. Their professors advised them NOT to graduate, to maintain their undergrad status and just continue to grad school. Nephew got instate tuition at undergrad rate, and if he’d wanted to could have taken fed loans as an undergrad too (GF was OOS student so still had to pay that rate). Did it help? I don’t know but they’ve both been fully employed since graduation.
Sometimes the finances work out to continue on to a masters even if there isn’t a clear career or financial benefit waiting.
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