How well do Ivy League/Ivy League like (top LAC) as measured by career trajectory? Playing this game to what end

Parents Forum
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Wanted to get some dialogue going about the elephant in the room that no one seems to mention. With many striving to get into Princeton, Yale, Stanford, Northwestern, Williams, Pomono what happens next and is the prestigious degree related stress worth it in the end. What happens to the student that got in and graduated? Did they accomplish more in the workplace or do they end up being a regular worker bee?

What are student outcomes of top tier students 10 to 20 years later? Did the college attended really matter? One measure is salary but how fast to they move up the chain? In what industry did they land and did the undergraduate education make a difference.

Iā€™m working on a research project by sifting through LinkedIn and compiling stats on top tier outcomes vs a state school or a tier 3 or tier 4 school.

Iā€™m a parent of a current high school senior so Iā€™m in the same boat as many on here.
So far Iā€™ve personally done some analysis of top tier Northeast private schools that occasionally publish student name/college or you can do definitely gain some insights with LinkedIn. Iā€™ve taken a look at about 400-500 independent school students 15 years out from high school graduation that went to Ivyā€™s and the like and the outcomes are extremely poor vs what those drinking the kool aid would expect.

Interested in comments from those either going through it or have seen some outcomes.
Iā€™ll start to profile some sample students and outcomes in future posts. Cheers

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No doubt, this topic can be contentious. But Iā€™ll give it a stab, speaking from the viewpoint of someone who heads a global organization.

Which college you go to matters for your first job. And this isnā€™t just about going to a T-20 school - if youā€™re at a school where a lot of people get recruited at firms you want to work at, then the right college gives you an edge. So that may be Harvard for IB jobs, but could be Alabama for aeronautical jobs.

A few years into your job, the college will hardly matter. At that point itā€™s all about your skills and experience - what you bring to the table, not what you learned in college.

As for career growth, this really depends on the individual and not their college. Those that rise up the corporate ladder or make it big on their own really do so because of who they are - their talent, perseverance, grit, drive, etc.

Anecdotally, when I look at the C-suite and senior leadership ranks of the companies I know, I donā€™t see many Ivy Leaguers (disclaimer: I am not familiar with law firms - they probably have a healthy representation of Ivy leaguers at the top). Iā€™ve often wondered why this is the case. My theory is that those who came from less resourced colleges learned to do a lot more with less and that resourcefulness and drive has contributed a lot to their success.

I will finish by saying the Ivy League schools and other T-20s are no doubt excellent institutes - among the best in the world. So my post is in no way diminishing their worth. They are well resourced and provide outstanding opportunities to students, so there are many benefits to attending these schools. My post here is specifically answering OPā€™s question:

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There is one thing that is very important but that is very difficult to correct for. Specifically, the students that graduate high school and go on to top universities are generally not average students. Do the schools make the students, or do the students make the school?

Some very strong high school graduates go on to attend Harvard, Princeton, Yale, MIT, Stanford, Caltech, Chicago, or a comparable university. Some very strong high school graduates go to top LACs such as Williams or Bowdoin. Some very strong high school graduates go to an in-state public university. Some others go to a wide range of other universities.

Average high school graduates (letā€™s suppose students with a 3.0 GPA) might also go to an in-state public university, but are very unlikely to attend MIT or Caltech for their bachelorā€™s degree.

Thus top students may attend any one of a very wide range of universities and the strongest students at a wide range of universities might be similarly strong. However, averaged across all students at any one particular university the top ranked schools on average tend to have stronger incoming students than lower ranked schools. Is this what makes the different in terms of long term average outcomes?

What I think at least some of us might want to know is for a student who is one of the very top students in their high school and who is capable of attending a top ranked school, will they do very well in life even if they attend an average university for their bachelorā€™s degree?

My wife attended a ā€œnot quite top 100ā€ university for her bachelorā€™s. It was close to home (she saved money by living at home) and she got a very good merit scholarship. Then she got two masterā€™s degrees at an Ivy League university. One daughter attended a university that also was not quite ranked in the top 100 overall in the US. She is right now studying for a doctorate (a DVM) at a university that is ranked in the top 5 in the world for her major. When I got my masterā€™s at Stanford, with one exception it was difficult to find two other students who had gotten their bachelorā€™s at the same university. The exception was a small group of students who had gotten their bachelorā€™s at Rutgers and then gone to work at Bell Labs, which was then supporting them for their masterā€™s degree.

At one point I tried to make a list of the 10 smartest people that I have ever met. I ended up with 12 people on the list and was not able to cut it to 10. I was surprised to discover that they had attended 12 different universities for their bachelorā€™s degrees. They did have a tendency to then concentrate towards the top ranked universities for graduate degrees, if they went on to get one.

But I have not seen solid studies to back up my impressions in this area.

My general feeling is that students should strive to find a university that is a good fit for them. Some 18 year old students are ready for the rigor of a university such as MIT or Caltech. Some are not. Some are ready for this level of academic stress when they get a bit older (such as when they go for a masterā€™s or doctorate).

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Wasnā€™t there a study a few years ago that measured the outcomes of Harvard Grads vs kids who got into Harvard but attended public schools? I think their outcomes were virtually the same.

ETA: found it!

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I love this thread, but I do believe so much of it is just anecdotal. There are many kids that could get into those top tier schools, but choose otherwise for financial reasons. Some would rather stay in state or get merit aid knowing grad/med/law school will be on the horizon. Some just want a school with more school spirit and sports. The inverse relationship is not always true, less academically strong students would not have the opportunity. Also some of the smartest people I have met are not always the most successful out of school. The best artist to go to Harvard may not make anywhere near as much money as the best Business student at a good state U. That may just not be as important to them.

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An oft discussed topic here on CC, and Iā€™m sure in parlors all over the land :wink:.

There are many studies that have been done attempting to quantify what you are asking, so maybe start with a google search for those.

Here are some resources:

https://www.thirdway.org/report/which-college-programs-give-students-the-best-bang-for-their-buck

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Was not aware so thanks for sharing will take a look.

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Living in a high COL area but what I would consider middle class, many are in the college financial donut hole. Many of our valedictorians/salutatorians end up at Rutgers, my daughterā€™s friend was salutatorian went to university of Delaware. The median household income is around $100,000 in my town, typical home value $530,000 (which would put annual property taxes in the $15,000 range). T20 schools arenā€™t affordable to many, no matter how bright and capable they may be.

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@DadofJerseyGirl - thanks for the insights and thoughts especially coming from a head of a global organization. I agree with you on several points that after day one of your first job school becomes almost irrelevant but prior to that first job school does offer access to landing that interview and job. As you mention it is industry specific and in law the top tier white glove law firms almost exclusively recruit from Ivy/Ivy+. Same goes for investment banking as you describe. But that is a small subset of the real world workplace.

What about a regular corporate finance job (an excel jockey) doing financial modeling, accounting or tax. Then there are teachers who educate the next generation, the pharmaceutical/healthcare industry offers lucrative careers and virtually no Ivy representation from c-suite on down, and doctors have been well served going to a state school and off to pick a med school, even down in the Caribbean (St. Georges - if it is still around).

The top schools are explicit feeders for a handful of professions and the majority of students do not end up in those professions. Nor does the ivy degree help them move up, that comes down to grit, perseverance, coming from genetics.

All business and industry is a pyramid and not everyone can reach the top. So essentially we are saving the same thing which leads me back to why bother the ā€œkeeping up with the Jonesā€™ā€ to tell your friends and neighbors my kid got into XYZ Ivy university.

Just sayinā€™

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Methinks you are describing New Jersey in which almost every house is $500k with about $15k property taxes. If the Val/Salā€™s are going UDel. and/or Rutgers then the high school of that town just seems to not be of a high academic caliber. Itā€™s not only independent school students that are filling the Ivyā€™s public school students get in as well.

Completely agree on the affordability of college which is down the path of Rutgers (or any state school) or T20 model with no need for the generic schools (i.e. Marist, St. Bonaventure, Monmouth, Allegheny, etc.) Kids that attend these generic expensive schools get a degree then go work at a daycare (the psych. majors) or front desk of the local Hyatt House (marketing major). Eventually these no name colleges will go bust as we are starting to see the beginnings of plus the consolidation of schools. Bloomfield college/Montclair St. Just the beginning.

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And at that moment College Confidential jumped the sharkšŸæ

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ā€œGeneric expensive schools.ā€

I guess Iā€™ve learned a new term, as well as from whence all the day care centers and Hyatt House front desk workers are sourced.

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Looking forward to what you find in the study. Curious if you will have the tools to separate out hooked vs unhooked students at both Ivy and non-Ivy.
Word of caution ā€“ I am told that it is not fashionable, or not common practice to put up a Linkedin page in some industries (Tech was mentioned to me; So was quant).

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I keep going back to my friend the Wall Street analyst. By all measures he represents what many, many, many Ivy-bound graduates are striving for: high salary, huge nest egg. He is on track to retiring before the age of 50. None of it stops him from feeling like a ā€œworker beeā€. OTOH, my friend the dance instructor hustles for clients in-between performing her own work for next to no pay and will probably never be able to retire. But none of it stops her job satisfaction level from being through the roof. I am SO glad I donā€™t have to choose which one of them will live longer, will raise the happier family or be admitted to the Pearly Gates. Because I have no idea.

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And another example would be my niece who helped launch two successful silicon valley startups by her late 30s. Two houses in Bali (on one beach the other inland), one home in Costa Rica. Currently helping with a school for expat children in Bali as she raises her daughter in beautiful surroundings. YMMV.

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I know you mean that as a counterpoint, but Iā€™m wondering whether your niece doesnā€™t fall into the category of WDWW (Would Have Done Well Wherever)?

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I guess the question is what this ā€œgameā€ is, what it takes to win, and whether one even wants to play.

One viewpoint is that if your goal is to be a worker bee, or maybe a drone (weā€™ll keep with apiary analogies, I guess), the ā€œrightā€ college might help slightly in getting a better position in the hive.

But I might argue that college should be more than one step in the lifetime of dronehood. Itā€™s a chance to learn about yourself, and learn about the world around you - learning that may never be ā€œmonentizedā€. We all have to decide if thatā€™s enough.

Me, I learned some things, most of which are obsolete now. I learned how to learn. Had a pretty good research career, where we learned some things. Students have gone on to do pretty amazing things in many areas: keeping airplanes up in the sky, improving cell phones, making movies and ā€œmaking the world safe for democracyā€. Is that enough? It is for me.

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As others have touched on, one problem is controlling for differences in individual students. For example, the average student at an Ivy+ type college is not the same as the average student at a non-selective public college. If you see a difference in average outcome as listed in LinkedIn profile, is the cause of that difference the name of the college attended or differences in the students attending those colleges?

It helps to control for a measure of academic quality, such as SAT score or class rank at a particular HS. Do the 1500+ SAT score kids have similar outcomes at college A vs college B, rather than the average kid attending college A vs average kid attending college B. However, even controlling for SAT score, does not control for things like differences in career targets/goals. For example, kids who are interested in certain types of high paying careers are probably more likely to apply to certain types of colleges, so the students who are interested in high paying careers become overrepresented at certain colleges.

One classic study that tried to control for these variables is Dale & Krueger. They looked at kids who applied to a similar set of colleges and compared financial outcomes for students who attended the more selective college vs the less selective college. Their findings are quoted below:

when we adjust for unobserved student ability by controlling for the average SAT score of the colleges that students applied to, our estimates of the return to college selectivity fall substantially and are generally indistinguishable from zero.

There are many possible criticisms with the study, but I donā€™t think the conclusion is far off the mark. In general, individual students drive career outcomesā€¦ not the prestige of college name. While the averages show little differences, there are of course individual variations. There are some particular students who would have better/worse outcomes due to attending a particular college. In some cases, the more selective college leads to a better outcome, and in some cases the less selective college leads to a better outcome. There are also some specific companies that are more likely to recruit or favor grads from particular colleges. Itā€™s difficult to generalize, with so much variation.

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Kids who attend ā€œgeneric expensive schoolsā€ have a wide range of outcomes that go far beyond daycare or the front desk at Hyatt. The first college you listed was Marist, so Iā€™ll use Marist as an example. Their class of 2021 outcomes page is at https://www.marist.edu/documents/20182/3983464/22_OutcomeReport_FINAL_PrinterEdits.pdf/941c5f95-d3a3-4244-9d7b-51ddd6162987 .

There are over 100 employers listed, many of which are companies that are well regarded on this forum. For example, some of the employers of CS grads include Google, Facebook, and Apple. Some of the employers of management grads include Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Deloitte, and Amazon. There are of course also some Marist grads who are underemployed in unpleasant jobs, but is that primarily because of the name of school attended?

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Iā€™ve said before D20 decided to attend (what we consider) a ā€˜hidden gemā€™ college that most people wouldnā€™t recognize. She is very smart and amazing (totally unbiased opinion :wink:), but didnā€™t have the absolute highest GPA or test scores that often get bandied about these parts. She quit her major EC halfway through high school and gasp got a job instead.

At her hidden gem, no-real-name recognition school - she has already had incredible opportunities, too many to name without sounding utterly ridiculous. And has been recruited for internships outside her area of focus (turns out mad language skills and sales experience are hugely important for many companies, including the IB companies so many spend a ton of time stressing over and joining competitive clubs to try to game).

Obviously, this is just one anecdote. But there are students who arenā€™t the ā€˜Best of the Best of the Best with Honors, Sir!ā€™ during high school who take off like a rocket during collegeā€¦at colleges most people will have never heard of. At every opportunity sheā€™s earned - there are students from those highly rated schools. But almost as many from other schools that most often donā€™t rate a mention here, or are the ones many parents and students complain of being the safety they hoped never to have to use.

All of this to say, even when you get to college - there are plenty of students who will ā€˜out performā€™ their schoolā€™s ā€˜rankingā€™ and high school performance as rated by GPA and test scores, as well as plenty of students who will be mediocre to below average at their very highly ranked schools - even with stellar stats and ECs going in (I am talking pure math).

I know getting into the highest ranked school feels super important and feels like the ā€˜safeā€™ choice for success. But being at the bottom or middle of the pack at a highly selective school can feel pretty cruddy and demoralizing, and 50% of students are going to be in that position (again, talking math).

I wish more student and parents could be more strategic* with their choices and not get stuck on the (incorrect) heuristic that ā€œbest ranked school produces best result for individualā€. It isnā€™t true and leads to so much angst during the admission process and the college experience itself.

*Find the school that offers opportunities youā€™ll actually be able to take full advantage of, that fits you best (academically, socially, financially), where you have the ability to shine. Awesome consulting club that routinely boasts of great placements but youā€™ll never gets admitted to wonā€™t help you land that IB or consulting gig you dreamed of during high school. School you and your family struggle to afford isnā€™t going to be one that you can actually take the time to find the opportunities you might not even know exist - youā€™ll be too busy figuring out how to get more hours at the dining hall job you have, or talking to the financial aid office about payment plans.

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