Ivy League =?= Ivy League Career Potential/Experience?

<p><a href="http://www.techtimes.com/articles/6597/20140506/ivy-league-college-doesnt-equate-ivy-league-career-experience-new-poll.htm"&gt;http://www.techtimes.com/articles/6597/20140506/ivy-league-college-doesnt-equate-ivy-league-career-experience-new-poll.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Attending a top-tier college doesn't necessarily equate to a life-lasting collegiate experience that will play into career success, says a new poll, and, in fact, it's college life experiences that matter the most.</p>

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<p>The news comes at a time when entrance to Ivy League schools is fierce given the increasing numbers of students attending college and the rising cost of education which many believe are over-taxing for college students and families.</p>

<p>The joint research effort between Purdue University and the Lumina Foundation studied the relationship between college graduates' lives and the college they attended. It turns out the choice of school "hardly matters" when it comes to future workplace engagement and well-being.</p>

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<p>The telling statistic from that survey is that 25% of kids with little or no debt (under 10k) are reporting that they’re thriving versus 2% of the kids with lots of debt >40k)</p>

<p><a href=“Elite Colleges Don't Buy Happiness for Graduates - WSJ”>Elite Colleges Don't Buy Happiness for Graduates - WSJ;

<p>@halfemptypockets</p>

<p>+1!</p>

<p>I graduated Rutgers U. with a BS Computer Science. I had a 2.8 GPA - certainly not a model student! Conventional wisdom from this forum would say, “You’re doomed! You’ll never measure up to the Ivy grads!” A year before I graduated, I branched Infantry commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant in the Army National Guard. That gave me a government security clearance as well as State Tuition Waiver so I was able to walk out of undergrad with exactly $0 in debt. Because I had a security clearance and a BS Computer Science, I was competing against no one in my graduating class for a career in the defense sector. (And I wasn’t about to give this up to compete in a field where those coming from Ivy League level schools would have a significant advantage in recruiting. The bottom line up front is that you don’t compete in a field where you start out handicapped if you have better options).</p>

<p>I applied to two jobs and they only required a 30 min phone interview for a software engineer position in a metro area with 1/3-1/2 the cost of living of NYC/CA. They emailed me an offer within 10 mins for $80,000/year, God’s health insurance, over 6 weeks of paid vacation per year (roll over 2x), tuition assistance for grad school, unlimited paid military leave (double dip), and 35 hour work weeks on average with flex-schedule. I ended up grossing ~ $105k that year (taking advantage of military leave policy) in a locale that would have been equivalent to me grossing $200+k in NYC with excellent work-life balance in my FIRST year as an entry level software engineer. I was dumping money (20-25% of income) into my 401k, Federal TSP, and stacking a military retirement all at the same time. I was living in a 1500 sq. ft. luxury condo with 2BR, 2BA, office, balcony, reserved parking, elevator access. </p>

<p>I was able to do all that because I wasn’t working in a field like finance/biglaw where you are working 70+ hours a week; amusingly enough, those are the fields that value the brand name/prestige of Ivy league level schools. When you’re working that many hours a week, you’re essentially putting all your eggs in one basket - going all in. Personally, I’m against giving a single employer that much control on where your career goes. My hedge became my Army career as well as the MS Computer Science degree that would make me more attractive to my employer’s competitors. In my field, a MS CS degree is equivalent to approximately 2 years of work experience. Because I was set to complete the MS CS in 4 years while working full time, I was eligible to advance/promote an equivalent of 6 years in an actual span of 4 years.</p>

<p>In addition to my full time career as a software engineer, my Army career was progressing in parallel. I was being sent to career development (required) courses years before I needed it for promotion. I found a unique environment where my advancement in either ladder (defense and military) improved your prospects in the other. There were scores of developers that were smarter than me and went to better schools than I did. But if you’re working in an organization whose client is the Army and you are the actual end-user (dual status individual - contractor and service member), you don’t have to be smarter or harder working than those prodigies - you just have to be good enough. It’s a rigged game. It’s a rigged game in my favor.</p>

<p>Many of my more ambitious (at the time) peers from high school went to Ivy League schools and went on to careers that were biased towards Ivy League name brands. But over the course of the years, most of them, by and large, burned out. Their bodies and their minds couldn’t take the brutal 80+ hour work weeks; they were living in a city where they just couldn’t save because of the high rents/housing, high taxes, no free time, etc. They were essentially working to make some rich guy even richer! Most of my peers were minorities of Asian descent. They were raised in an environment where their parents groomed them for medicine, academia, law, business, and engineering. Military service was cast in a dark light by these parents that emigrated from countries where military service was compulsory. This was the case with my parents. They were deathly opposed to me joining the service. And I did it anyways. Because if you want to stand out among the crowd you’re going to need the intestinal fortitude to say, “No. I hear your concerns. I’ve done the research. There’s risk. I accept that. I’ve planned for that. Now let me execute my plan.” You’re going to need to believe in yourself when others don’t, and you’re going to need to follow through on your course of action.</p>

<p>It almost became an obsession to prove the naysayers wrong. And I did. I took a path that was far less travelled, and I was more successful career wise, spiritually, and financially. I have a passion for what I do. The last question I had during that phone interview was, “Why would we choose you?” I answered, “While you have other candidates, none of them are the actual end user. None of them are going to pay the price when your system fails in theatre. My soldiers are going to pay the price. I’m going to pay the price.”</p>

<p>Tl;dr summary:</p>

<p>The Ivy League to Ivy League career is a brute force approach in a frontal assault direction. It’s a linear design with a single point of failure. It requires a high cost of entry – and people often forget the overall picture and overlook this cost. The REAL LIFE consequences are huge in overlooking cost in pursuit of prestige/brand name.</p>

<p>There are formulaic ways for what you would consider “average” students to excel beyond their Ivy League counterparts. You need a base level of intelligence, to have done the research, a level of controlled aggression, the ability to take risks, execute, and endure. You have the find the angles that no one else sees and plan for a multi-pronged approach in a field where you can harness and apply all your personal strengths.</p>

<p>Thank you Polo088 for your informative post. Two points:</p>

<p>1) My own kids have graduated from college or university, but in recent years I have mentored, high-achieving, first-generation high school students starting in their junior year—a number of whom likely had a good shot at acceptance at an Ivy. Interestingly, when I inform them of that possibility, only one of them has wanted to entertain the idea of Ivy acceptance. With the one exception, they have believed that the Ivies would be rife with a large proportion of affluent students that they would not identify with. The argument that “the school would be filled with smart students who would engage you with challenging discussions” did not, as they say, hold water. The students I am mentoring have instead elected to go to state flagships and, as far as I can tell, have thrived. The one student who did get into an Ivy is currently struggling to find friends and I know this because part of the mentoring program is to stay in regular touch when the student is at college. All of the students are aware of career options like finance, even investment banking, but interestingly have elected not to join that rat race and are pursuing majors like pre-med, biochemistry, even, gasp, sociology. I have come to admire their rationale for their choices.</p>

<p>2) I was away from College Confidential for the most part for several years, but am now revisiting it more often as I try to help one student I am currently mentoring. To my eyes, the Ivy frenzy has grown even more extreme than in the distant past when I was looking to CC for guidance as my kids prepared to apply to college. Perhaps I am missing a screw, but it seems to me that every month, if not every week, there is yet another study or well-researched academic paper that shows that where you went to college doesn’t ultimately matter within a few years of graduation; what matters is your degree, your personal initiative, people skills, etc. Yet to a seemingly large number of CC posters (potential students, current students, and former students, often in the form of Ivy parents), if you are accepted to any Ivy, especially HPY, you must not hesitate----especially if you are receiving decent to excellent financial aid. You and your family would be ill-advised for every reason known to man and woman to pass up this opportunity. Not necessarily, I answer. For various reasons, I happen to know a lot of older Ivy graduates as well as Gen Xers and Millenials Ivy graduates (and, yes! I know this is a small sample), yet nothing in my years of interacting with them makes me believe that they are any more intelligent, driven or successful than graduates from other schools, especially state flagships. </p>

<p>Honestly, I find the inanity of the Ivy frenzy simply sad for everyone. Of course I realize that I am the umpteenth poster to try to alert students that there are great options other than an Ivy education, but I think it cannot be said enough. Students with 2350 SATs: are you listening? My fervent hope is that you are.</p>

<p>I agree that the debt issue is telling… but from the report it is hard to tell whether the no-debt status of the survey group corresponded to lower-cost education or having richer parents. I imagine it’s a combination of both --but those are two elements that I would like to see teased out some more. The offspring of wealthier parents very likely continue to get financial assistance through life, or may emerge from college with a well-funded investment account as well as lack of debt. That in turn is going to impact employment and life choices (where to live, whether to marry and start a family, etc.). </p>

<p><a href=“http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303417104579544161033770526?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories&mg=reno64-wsj”>http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303417104579544161033770526?mod=WSJ_hp_RightTopStories&mg=reno64-wsj&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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The chart you listed shows 11 to 14% of those with under $10k said they are “thriving”, with 11% at 10k debt and 14% at 0 debt… This is not the same as 11+14=25% saying they are “thriving”. Also note that they define “thriving” to require specific answers to questions about their financial situation, so a correlation with debt is expected.</p>

<p>@Polo08816‌ you’ve done pretty well for yourself. Certainly better than the average Ivy grad.</p>

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<p>Polo- you make many great points, and I would like to reiterate your comment about ‘all the eggs in one basket’-referring to prestige NYC companies squeezing the life out of Ivy grads. After the two year contracts of new grads are completed, only a few are given new contracts, and the majority are left to scramble to find new positions. </p>

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<p>“Share who are thriving by undergraduate debt level” sounds to me like it should be of those who are thriving, what was their debt level, but the numbers don’t add up to 100% so that’s not right either. The article reads as if it wasn’t well proof-read, just pushed out the door. I noticed multiple mistakes without trying to find them. </p>

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<p>If you go into a career field without a real solid plan on how you’re going to come out on top of all your peers, you’ve either accepted that you don’t have a real plan for success or you’ve accepted that you are essentially rolling the dice and you don’t know what side will come up. (By solid, I mean how is your plan different than those of your peers and is it feasible?)</p>

<p>For example, if you go into finance and your plan is, “Go to a name-brand school, get a job, work really hard, and network”, then it’s probably the same plan as everyone else’s. You need to demonstrate how and why at every point along the way of your plan, you will be more successful than your peers (or how you mitigate the risks that you won’t come out in a dominant position).</p>

<p>I still find it amusing how a horde of undergrads are scammed into some belief that they will make it whereas others won’t. (Almost like most people believe they are better than the average driver). A lot of these prestige employers dangled a carrot in front of candidates, and the potential upside made so many overlook the chance of failure.</p>

<p>I always wondered: “What’s the point of busting your butt in HS to get into an Ivy School…then busting your butt in college while taking on massive loans just to get a prestige job (where you are again, busting your butt 70+ hours a week) when some guy walked out of a state school with a 2.8 GPA and no debt is now able to work less, earn more, and live better?” Seems like some kids were sold a BS story about the Ivy-league education equaling an “Ivy-league” career/lifestyle.</p>