<p>The real issue with policy, imho, is the off-shoring of jobs and the tax advantages allowed and offered to the off-shoring of jobs.</p>
<p>The other, even more serious issue with policy, which is effecting employment options for our young people, is crony capitalism, a definite addition brought to bear by the generation in power. (This is not a party issue, both parties are engaged in this equally).</p>
<p>Both of these issues have destroyed the economy and have created the two-America’s problems we see today. For sure, the advent of the highly overcompensated, by percentage of pay, executives, has contributed mightily to both the off-shoring of jobs ANd to the downward pressure on pay for work. </p>
<p>Additionally, of course, there are now 3 college graduates where there used to only be one.</p>
<p>All of this, along with the current economic downturn, which has continued for far too long, (the recession “ending” allegedly years ago with no meaningful upward adjustment in employment numbers), has contributed to an unfavorable situation which we have never seen since the great depression. And, in fact, if they still measured economic numbers in the same way they measured them in the late 20’s, it would be very, very interesting to see how the true comparisons would look.</p>
<p>When many major economists are predicting an entire economic paradigm switch from spending and credit to savings for an entire generation based on this particular economy, it can no longer legitimately be compared any other era.</p>
<p>My entire point is parents cannot compare the 1970s and 1980s to the current generation of college graduates. Not all college graduates today are entitled, spoiled snobs. The cost-of-living and college tuition costs were much cheaper thirty years ago. Federal loans and federal work-study do not cover all tuition expenses. Finally, most parents were not drowning in debt (both student loans and credit cards) like the current generation.</p>
<p>The ever-widening generational schism has a lot more basis than just perception of each other’s vices. Right now the 5-30 year olds are expected to pay into social programs which will be bankrupt long before they get any of those services, and have to do it with the worst demographic cliff the US has seen yet (something China will have a horrendous struggle with in a decade as well).</p>
<p>Leaving that aside, I think it’s undeniable that excluding the lazy kids (who have existed since the dawn of civilization), this generation is the hardest working in school. The problem lies in the fact that as a consequence, we’re far too used to structure and founder without it. Give a modern college student 10 papers to write in 10 days, he/she will manage. But nobody’s giving you a syllabus or packet of homework when you’re job hunting, so students feel lost and aren’t sure what to do or look for. The flip side is we learn quickly and respond well to hands-on guidance, at least in my experience coaching a couple of friends on to very good jobs from almost scratch (no resume or prior work experience for one of them). Far too many miss the best recruiting window they have though (senior year), and it’s much harder to find good placements once you’re graduated.</p>
<p>But it would not be surprising if they became more politically active once they start receiving Medicare and Social Security checks. Loss aversion is strong; once you give someone something, they get much angrier about having it taken away than if you never give it to them in the first place.</p>
<p>honied_dreams–you forgot to add in 18% interest rates on mortgages and other loans, gas shortages, mile long lines at the gas stations and high (at the time) gas prices, food prices, etc. Also realize that most families in the 70’s were single income families that lived off of that one wage. You live in a 2 income home now.</p>
<p>Like several people have said, you live in the most depressed part of the country now. You are not getting a realistic view of the job market around the rest of the nation. I would bet that both you and your boyfriend could easily find jobs in other parts of the country where you can get along just fine, pay your bills and be able to set aside some money. You have to put forth the effort to change your situation though…</p>
<p>tenisghs–there are thousands of places around the country that are affordable and either have public transportation or people can WALK to work and not have to live in a very, VERY high cost of living area just so they can take the bus to work. Also, half of their salary would not be going to housing, etc. and they could afford a car. I gave a couple examples of places like that and I bet every poster here could come up with many examples from their state as well. You are just perpetuating what the rest of us here are trying to get across to these kids, you do NOT need to live in a major metro area to get a job. The economic situation today is very similar to that in the 70’s, the numbers were smaller back then but so were the salaries–the percentages are the same or similar.</p>
<p>1 in 2 new graduates jobless or underemployed</p>
<p>One majored in STEM and the other LA? If so, that’s bad because that’ll kill off our great LA schools (however good/top-ranked they are today). Does outsourcing our jobs lead to this?</p>
<p>One of my kids lives in one of these cities on an entry-level salary (half of which goes to pay rent). This couldn’t be done if it were necessary to own a car. But fortunately, there’s no need for a car.</p>
<p>Where are you guys getting this information about how Detroit and a few other cities are the home of all the underemployed/unemployed of the nation? I am open to relocation to numerous large cities in numerous states in numerous regions all over the United States. I have searched thousands (don’t even try to say I am exaggerating) of job listings online. There are extremely few that are open to new college graduates without significant work history/experience and significant pre-existing skills/certifications. Not even internships give the kind of experience that most of the so called “new graduate” positions require. You guys are not living in the real world.</p>
<p>GoalsOriented–have you actually applied to any of those jobs? Many jobs list that they want 2 years of experience, however, often a BA/BS will be the experience they are looking for. Also, if every job you are looking at required significant experience, you are simply looking at the wrong jobs. Did you put in “entry level” as a search function? See, this is what we are talking about, new grads don’t understand the concept of “entry level”. Those crappy entry level jobs are how you get your foot in the door with a company. Who cares if it isn’t your “dream job” you don’t GET your dream job right out of college, you work toward your dream job. You go to that entry level job, work your rear off, prove yourself, go above and beyond, get your experience, THEN you look for a better job with a higher salary. That is how the job market works. </p>
<p>What is your field? As I said to another new grad on this thread, I bet everyone of us “old guys” can find 20+ jobs that would work for you as an entry level position in our area. </p>
<p>Also, your question about Detroit–simple answer AUTO INDUSTRY…</p>
<p>I had a little help from my mother, worked, got tuition reimbursement
from a few companies and I had debt. Many others that I knew graduated
with debt.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Some kids can’t do that. Some can. Perhaps we have too many kids going
to college. I think that the college participation rate is a lot
higher today than it was in the past. This has stretched money
available for aid and has raised the price of college. Vice-Presiden
Biden said as much recently. His argument for the current structure is
that it provides opportunity for more people. It does do that but it
also causes some big problems.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Yes, we had mortgage interest rates of 18% and Central Bank rates well
into the teens. Those were the highest rates in the history of the US.</p>
<p>A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy
based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.[1] To “attack a
straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition
by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent
proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having
actually refuted the original position.[1][2]</p>
<p>– Wikipedia</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>That’s because we use our student funds to provide debt to just about
anyone whereas in Europe, they provide grants to a far smaller
population. I actually think that’s a better way to go if you don’t
want to saddle people with a lot of debt but it limits access and
opportunity. The poor, brilliant kid may not get a shot.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>The highest postwar unemployment rate was 10.8% in November and
December of 1982 (source: US Department of Labor: Bureau of Labor
Statistics).</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>That’s untrue.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Perhaps we should go towards a European system. Just be warned that
there are a lot of Europeans unhappy with their system too. And they
have a few economic problems spilling over to the rest of the world.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>The bigger problem is the foreign supply of educated workers and the
ability to move jobs offshore.</p>
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<p>There were only a few posters complaining of laziness in college
students today. Please don’t state that all of those claiming that
times were tough back when are in that group. Are college students
lazy? I suppose that I could find statistics on video game use,
drinking, facebook time and partying and post those. Or you could
do your homework and do it yourself.</p>
<br>
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<p>Perhaps you could describe how every individual boomer did this.</p>
<p>Nobody seems to be able to answer this question.</p>
<br>
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<p>They wouldn’t need to. The younger showed proper respect for their
elders, even when it wasn’t deserved.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Your relatives sound like they were far better off compared to my
relatives in China. Air Conditioning? What’s that?</p>
<p>tenisghs - great post.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>The turnout in my town’s election a few weeks ago was 5%. What do
you think the demographics looked like?</p>
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<br>
<p>Yet you want to blame the entire movement based on the action of these
few?</p>
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<p>I’m not familiar with the tax advantages of off-shoring but there’s a
big advantage to off-shoring, even without any tax advantages.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Yes, I routinely go up to Congress to lobby that they should give me
$100 million for a windmill project in my backyard. Why are you
blaming a generation for the actions of a few?</p>
<br>
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<p>The economy was false to begin with. We had a nice advantage but the
rest of the world caught up. That’s to be expected.</p>
<br>
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<p>We can certainly compare aspects. You are comparing aspects; just the
ones you want to though.</p>
<br>
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<p>What are the numbers?</p>
<br>
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<p>What’s expected today is at a higher level than what was expected
30 years ago. The cost of computing 30 years ago was astronomical.
The cost of computing and communications today is miniscule.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Higher Education access is far greater today than it was in the past.
In the past, you had more grants relative to loans. We greatly
expanded access to college and decreased grants and increased loans.
Do you want to go back to the old days when far fewer went to college?</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Are you asserting that most parents are drowning in debt today? I’d
like to see a source for that one. In general 1/3rd own their homes
free and clear, 1/3rd have a mortgage, 1/3rd rent. There are a lot
of horror stories on debt out there and they sell ad-space but there
are a huge number of households that are in pretty good shape.</p>
<p>The generation of parents to boomers lived through the Great
Depression and were incredibly scared of debt. My mother is a good
example of this and she has the string and rubber band balls. She
still uses a vacuum cleaner from the 1950s or 1960s. It’s not
surprising to see the current cycles from a Kondreytiev perspective.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>A lot of the boomers face the same thing. Except that we’ve already
paid into those systems.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>The problem is has the percentage of lazy kids changed? A far greater
percentage of the population is going to college today. Does that mean
there there are more lazy kids in college today? I spend some time on
a college campus regularly and listen in on conversations and I am
frequently not impressed.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>I don’t know that the average college student would manage that. I
don’t know that I could handle that.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Colleges provide an incredible array of services today including
tutoring and career centers. I understand that many students aren’t
used to using these but they figure out the laundry, computer network,
cafeteria, and transportation systems pretty quickly.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Yup. That’s a little like networking.</p>
<p>For those that thought that the 70s and 80s were really great:</p>
<p>poetgrl–kids most certainly can put themselves through college and graduate with no debt today, many kids do just that, even at Ivy league schools–who, convert student loan debt to grants. The average Harvard student graduates with $7000 in student loan debt–pretty close to none. The problem is, and it is exaggerated on this board, that too many people think that they have to go to a top 20 school or they will be flipping burgers for the rest of their lives. Look at all the “help me decide” threads that have popped up in the past week or two–"should I turn down a full ride here because X school is ranked higher in USNWR)…let’s see, graduate from college not having paid a dime out of pocket and with no debt or taking out $250,000 in loans AND paying $$$$ all along because some magazine said one school is “better” than the other. Tell me kids can’t put themselves through college…no true at all.</p>
<p>Poet, I agree with you. NAFTA was a big mistake. We need to get rid of it. We can not support social services without a middle class, comprised of other than civil service and not for profit jobs. We need private sector middle class jobs.</p>
<p>“tenisghs–there are thousands of places around the country that are affordable and either have public transportation or people can WALK to work and not have to live in a very, VERY high cost of living area just so they can take the bus to work. Also, half of their salary would not be going to housing, etc. and they could afford a car. I gave a couple examples of places like that and I bet every poster here could come up with many examples from their state as well. You are just perpetuating what the rest of us here are trying to get across to these kids, you do NOT need to live in a major metro area to get a job. The economic situation today is very similar to that in the 70’s, the numbers were smaller back then but so were the salaries–the percentages are the same or similar.”</p>
<p>SteveMA, I lived in Detroit (bit city) and Ann Arbor (small city). There is literally no public transit in Metro Detroit (the SMART/DDOT boondoggle is facing more cuts so I sympathize for the people still living there). If i got a job in Detroit, I would have had to decline it because I would have had no means to get to work unless I borrowed someone else’s car (and paid them each time for taking me to work). Most American cities (both urban and rural) were built around the car as the sole means of transportation. As a result, public bus systems are underfunded across the nation. Meanwhile, I was able to get a job in Ann Arbor because it is a college town that offers a reliable, decent bus system. College towns tend to offer more progressive public bus systems. As I stated in previous threads, I believe that college graduates should also search job listings in college towns (not only are these places more pedestrian-friendly, but they can also offer similar amenities you would normally find in larger cities). </p>
<p>SteveMA, the majority of American cities are not built like NYC where a car isn’t necessary for work. For those college grads who cannot afford a car, their options are even more limited. Some job descriptions even state that you must provide your own personal transportation. What is a college graduate supposed to do in that case?</p>
<p>The number of times I had to tell my kids not to pay attention to what the teachers were saying, and administrators, about how “your grades now will effect you for the rest of your life,” is uncountable. It started in sixth grade. I can’t even imagine if a kid goes home to parents who reinforce this ridiculous idea.</p>
<p>Heck, I told my kids, get a job at McDonalds. The only way to own a McDonalds is to work at one. Dont underestimate the value of some burger flipping or coffee making. </p>
<p>My oldest goes to college and works practically full time and given the merit she recieved could have graduated debt free. True. I mean, she will graduate debt free, but we pay her rent and car insurance and she has a gas card.</p>
<p>The youngest would rather go to culinary school, but will end up with a business degree from a big state U. She would NOT pay for this, herself, but I personally want her to have it, before she goes to culinary school.</p>
<p>You can’t offshore the burger jobs, SteveMA. Another plus.</p>
<p>But, I don’t think there is a significantly larger number of entitled kids, now, then there were when the boomers were this age. I just don’t buy that line of reasoning. </p>
<p>Do I think it is going to take some ingenuity and tenacity, and that they will figure it out? Yes. But, let’s face it, these college degrees are not as valuable as they were in the 1980’s. As for Harvard, I’m sick of talking about the ten people who go to the Ivies, as if this is some sort of “example” of what most graduates are facing, today.</p>
<p>I have seen many job postings where they throw in every skill under the sun and the kitchen sink. Or they want 10 years experience in a field that’s 2 years old. Apply anyways - they don’t really expect everything that they ask for. I’m sure that they intimidate a lot of would-be applicants.</p>
<p>BC makes a good point. To quote the cliched sportscaster crowd: “You miss 100% of the shots you never take.”</p>
<p>You really have nothing to lose by applying. It’s not like the college app process where you have to pay to play. Job applications are free to the public!</p>
<p>Manchester, NH and Lowell, MA are two former millyard cities that had an influx of small, high-tech companies move in for the cheap rent. Apartment rentals are cheap and close to the old mill buildings. There are bus systems in these old cities but they are not great compared to the rail and bus systems in the big cities. The structure of work in the late 1800s and early 1900s is the same though - workplaces where the workers live close by and can walk to work. There’s also cheap higher education in both cities, restaurants, entertainment, parks. And, yes, crime.</p>
<p>There may be a lot of places like this in the US - I don’t know about them - I just know a couple of them in my area.</p>
<p>Busdriver–I forgot about sharing bath water. We did that!</p>
<p>Speaking of water, my first apartment had no running water 90% of the time. The pressure was very low and apparently the pump couldn’t get it up to second floor. So I’d have to go outside to a spigot and fill up a large container of water. I’d then boil some of it to heat it up, and pour it over myself to shower.</p>
<p>Seriously, it’s true that this generation has not experienced the frugal life as we have. I recall the struggling young-married-with-a-baby-times when friends and I would joke about having to sell possessions at the end of the month in order to buy milk. Only it wasn’t really a joke. One woman got a neighbor to buy a book of stamps off of her, for example. </p>
<p>That said, the pressures on today’s young people are different, but they do have pressures. For instance, they are expected to be passionately focused at age 17 and be a polished, finished product just to get into college.</p>
<p>BCEagle91, you just answered my point in a previous post:</p>
<p>“College towns tend to offer more progressive public bus systems. As I stated in previous threads, I believe that college graduates should also search job listings in college towns (not only are these places more pedestrian-friendly, but they can also offer similar amenities you would normally find in larger cities).”</p>
<p>After college, I got my first job in a college town. Years later, with a master’s degree in toll and remarkable resume experience, I was able to move up into a better job in Philadelphia. So, I don’t fall in the “must-relocate-to-NYC-after-graduation” mindset.</p>
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