That reminds me of something one of my college friends said once, affectionately. A group of us had gotten test scores back and he said “I don’t mind getting the lowest in our group because I’m in a smart group of friends!” He probably had a high B in the class at the time.
@sevmom, a lot of childish acts would be mean and immoral, if not criminal, when done by an adult to another. Daughter was extremely unhappy and couldn’t accept necessarily “social skills” in her kindergarten. Also, I tried to prepare her for the 1st grade in the Summer and ended up finishing all the way to 3rd grade curriculum in two months. So I figured that a local public school at that age was unfit for her both academically and for emotional health.
My wife agreed it but declared that she can’t handle academics. So we started homeschooling since the 1st grade and I have taught her academics in the evenings until she became a self-learner and started community college, while my wife was taking her homeschooling play groups, classes, and overseeing her spending day time on art and reading at home.
"If I had a twelve-year-old niece who wanted to discuss those things, I would [presumably] be happy to do so, because I [presumably] love my niece. But if I had to listen to someone else’s niece discussing those topics, I would be looking for a graceful way to leave quickly. “I would love to hear more, but I have to go and walk the dog .”
I guess I don’t mind kids discussing topics appropriate for kids.
“I guess I don’t mind kids discussing topics appropriate for kids.”
So does my wife. So we talk about inappropriate stuffs when she is not around.
Just listened to a interview with an Olympic medalist who had to leave home at the age of 11 in order to pursue her dream sport. You wouldn’t tell that kid the gym is still there when she is 18. I assume we are talking about a kid in that league, only replace gymnastics with STEM.
It sounds as if the parents expressly do NOT want to send the kid away, or they might have explored early college or boarding school options. By keeping the kid at home and sending him to take college classes, they can keep his childhood as normal as possible while still meeting his academics needs, as they are at this point. It’s not the college experience. He won’t have it,nor does he need it. He will still come home for dinner, can go to soccer, Boy Scouts, whatever non academic age appropriate activity float his boat. He can talk about clothes, bar mitzvah, pokemon or whatever interests out of school he might have with kids he meets there. He wouldn’t (hopefully) have had a chance to talk about these in class, anyway, you’d think they actually talk about college level physics there, and it appears he can hold his own there or they wouldn’t have accepted him.
I cannot imagine in what way you’d think a kid like this could ever be “normal”. Even if he learns to pretend to be interested in things other 12 year olds are interested, which appears to be what some understand are age appropriate social skills or participates in peeing on statues.
My 10 year old son is highly/profoundly gifted. By formal IQ testing, about 4+ standard deviations above average, though he hit the ceiling on most areas of the tests and the testers felt that his score probably under-represented his actual intelligence. We recognized that he was gifted years ago, but didn’t have him tested because we didn’t have a compelling reason, so he was tested late. He’s been in public elementary school all the way, and will enter a public middle school magnet program this fall.
When my son entered kindergarten it became very apparent that he had adjustment issues and was an outlier at his school. We looked at private schools, including very progressive ones. They rejected him, noting his extreme intelligence, empathy and other characteristics. One admission officer raved about him for 20 minutes, and then told us frankly that it would be “too much work” for the private school to have to accommodate him.
For 6 years my son has been at a public school where he has constantly complained about not fitting in, feeling different, and being bored. He has excelled academically and been in G&T programs, all of which are way below his level. His teachers have generally been supportive and caring, but overwhelmed with their duties and focused on the requirements of the “core curriculum”, standardized testing, etc.
Since Kindergarten my son has done music and art programs through local colleges’ programs (we are lucky to have national caliber programs nearby), and has thrived. He is very creative and artistic, and these things are a huge part of his self-expression. He’s doing high school level work (or above) as a 10 year old. We didn’t push him - he took to this like a duck to water, and we can’t hold him back. Since 3rd grade my son has done a bunch of supplementary accelerated work through outside programs - CTY, Duke TIP, The Art of Problem Solving, etc. He asked to do these things, and will frequently ask for more. He loves them, and has asked me to for years to take him out of public school and home school him. I make his teachers aware of the supplemental work that he is doing; most of them smile politely, say that’s great, but emphasize that it shouldn’t distract him from meeting the public school benchmarks on which they are judged, and make no accommodations in terms of decreasing the amount of tedious busy work that is way below his level, and which he hates.
Each year my son seemed to adjust better to public school in terms of learning how to handle fitting in, both in the classroom and socially. He had no close friends through school - though plenty of close friends outside of school who had shared interests - and little in common with the majority of kids, but generally got along ok. We felt that developing “social skills” and learning to function in the “normal” world was important.
This past year my son had a terrible time. His assigned teacher was out on maternity leave, and a long-term substitute was terrible, and clearly didn’t understand him. She singled him out from the other kids, and he became a target for bullying that lasted the entire year. We complained to the school administration, who did nothing about the substitute - we are fairly sure that they recognized the problem, but refused to admit it. Eventually a new teacher was hired who was wonderful, but my son - who like many gifted kids is hyper-sensitive and very empathetic - struggled with bullying the entire year, and it took a huge toll on him. He lost his mojo, complained about feeling “depressed”, and at times had morbid thoughts.
We finally got our son tested not because we wanted to push him further, or to rack up bragging points with other parents (nor will we make any of this generally known), but because the issues that he had this year made us realize that we needed to understand him better and learn how to support him better. Testing had the following results:
- It made us - who know our son better than anyone - aware of just how far off the "norm" he is. My Ivy league educated wife was shocked at how highly he tested. There were also times that we weren't as supportive as we could have been, or took some of his concerns lightly, where we didn't fully recognize how intensely a gifted child can experience things.
- The testing will give us some hard data to present to his school, with recommendations from professionals working in the field regarding acceleration, which may (or may not) help in terms of getting him further acceleration within the school system, or possibly reducing the amount of boring and repetitive below-level work that he receives. But at least we have formal recommendations from reputed professionals.
- The testing qualifies him for some programs (e.g., Davidson) where he can get exposure to other similarly bright kids, or even brighter kids, and find others with similar interests and abilities.
- The testing identified some areas of inconsistency which might indicate an underlying auditory or sensory processing issue, and which will require further testing. If confirmed, these may have impacted our son both in certain areas of performance (reading/writing) and in socialization. They can usually be treated.
- Perhaps most importantly, the testing helped our son understand who he is. He has spent 6 years feeling that he is "weird" and not like most other kids, and that there was something "wrong" with him. This is very common among gifted kids, and many have their natural ebullience and drive permanently blunted by repeatedly being bashed by the system.
My son is a “normal” 10 year old in many respects, but he brings the intensity of the highly-gifted to everything that he does. When he’s into nerf guns he researches them extensively and can tell you everything about every make and model, and plans elaborate nerf battles. It’s similar for anything else that interests him. He makes no effort whatsoever in areas that don’t interest him. Even when his interests match those of others his own age, the intensity with which he pours himself into them tends to overwhelm most of his peers. He generally gets along ok with kids his own age, and has some friends in that group, but generally does better with adults, older kids, or even occasionally with younger ones.
My son is nowhere ready for college, and that has never been a consideration. The child in the OP is probably well above my son in terms of testing and pure analytical ability. I can’t imagine how hard it must have been for him, and I’m very grateful that my son isn’t “more gifted”, which would just mean that he’d have a harder time fitting in. I expected the next 6 years (and beyond) will be a struggle to keep him appropriately challenged academically while finding a balance, trying to keep him grounded, and helping him to continue to develop socially. I’m sure some people - and some of his teachers - feel that we’re trying to “push” him, but it’s usually the other way around: he’s pushing us, and we’re trying to make sure that he isn’t getting held back, while also addressing other areas of his development. It’s quite a challenge.
I have seen many kids in your descriptions, majority of them don’t go to college very early, and are still doing just fine both socially and academically. Some found a small private school that happen to be able to help the kids, and hopefully already has 1~2 other high gifted kids.
Early college is an effective tool for some and not a goal. Beside, for most kids it takes years of developing hard working and problem solving skills that you can’t get while bound to a normal K-12 institution.
But more important thing, and I am sorry as it might be an option for you, is freeing him from the institution that is apparently oppressing him, and causing severe emotional distress and holding him back from achieving his potential.
Still acing in school and GT program means nothing if he is not learning and practicing how to work hard and maintain focus for long time on academics during this formative years. What academic knowledge he learns is not important. What learning and problem solving skills he is developing are.
At my local homeschooling group, we see kids like yours finally giving up schooling and joining us every week. The first thing they are recommended is depressurizing for a year or so, during which time just let them read, play (means in gifted/homeschooling social groups and not with video game, video game is the bane of homeschooling) and make without academics, and get read of all the stress he has accumulated, and find the love of learning again.
Again, I am sorry if this is what you already wanted but couldn’t do. But if not, then think about it.
^ Of course we’ve considered many alternatives. Almost all parents of highly gifted kids go through something like this, as the links I referenced point out. I know of parents where the kids have been through 12 schools in 12 years, looking for any kind of fit, and of parents who have relocated multiple times in an effort to find a fit. Lots of marriages break up over the strain. It’s a difficult process, and there is seldom an ideal answer. My point was:
- Highly/profoundly gifted kids differ widely in ability, maturation, personality and issues. There is no one solution that works for everyone. I'm certainly not pushing early college as an answer for most.
- Despite their differences, almost all highly/profoundly gifted kids need and crave acceleration in some form; almost all are marginalized and underserved in a "normal" school environment.
- The resources, issues, and available options vary tremendously from one family to the next. Homeschool may be a great option in one case, and almost non-existent in another. Acceleration within the school system may work in some cases, and not in others. Private schools, online acceleration, community college, and early college in some form may be options. Finances, job considerations, balancing the needs of other kids, the ability to relocate, and other factors will vary tremendously, and have a huge impact on the available options.
- Dealing with a highly/profoundly gifted child is a huge undertaking, which can be overwhelming for a lot of families. Parents frequently get bashed for being pushy, or accused of trying to milk their child's giftedness for prestige (e.g., see post #273 above). Most parents of highly/profoundly gifted kids that I know struggle to find good environments for those kids, go through many sacrifices (the Olympic athlete analogy is quite appropriate, IMHO), and would be thrilled to find a good low-profile alternative which requires less effort.
@SculptorDad, my son gets plenty of acceleration outside of school, as I described in my earlier post. Homeschool has not been an option so far. Private schools have not worked out. We continue to explore different options continuously, and continually adapt to our son’s development and changing needs. That’s pretty much the norm for any family dealing with this kind of situation, and ours is by no means the most extreme case.
“Just listened to a interview with an Olympic medalist who had to leave home at the age of 11 in order to pursue her dream sport. You wouldn’t tell that kid the gym is still there when she is 18. I assume we are talking about a kid in that league, only replace gymnastics with STEM.”
Well, actually I would. I would not value the prospect of winning an Olympic medal enough to send my kid away from home, have their life devoted to hours of practicing a sport, etc. I am not “inspired” by those stories. I always hear the Tiger Woods story of how his father coached him and I think yuck, all that fuss over something stupid and inconsequential like golf. It wouldn’t happen here. But that’s me.
“Although she picked the final courses, I was also heavily involved.” You should be aware that the degree of involvement that you describe is not even close to normal. Our middle school students are expected to master time management skills and personal organization in middle school and this is in fact one of the most important things that students learn in middle school, if they hadn’t learned it already.
@renaissancedad, I understand the difficulty. Based on your situation, there might still be something that can be done, which have been done by other families. I am sure you are doing what’s best for your son.
By the way have you considered substituting school math with AoPS (http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/)?
There are some families successfully convinced the school to allow the kids to do independent math with AoPS’s online school. Not only this gives a kid to study on his own ability, it also frees him up from mostly too easy and/or repetitive busy school work that takes a big chunk of both school and evening homework time.
@Pizzagirl, for once I agree with you.
Providing an appropriate education and lifestyle for someone like the 12-year-old who is going to Cornell is worth the effort because such people have the potential for outstanding lifelong careers in a variety of fields. Also, keeping them in the mainstream (ordinary school with no enrichment or acceleration) doesn’t meet their needs.
I’m more hesitant about taking kids out of the mainstream so that they can intensively learn a sport because the duration of careers in sports is so brief. And then what happens? Aly Raisman, the “grandma” of the U.S. women’s gymnastics team, is 22, and given her age, she’s unlikely to compete for much longer, if at all. What’s she going to do with the rest of her life? Has she had any chance to prepare for that or even think about it?
I’m no expert in education. But my family went through similar situation as yours. Here’s the story:
Toward the end of our D’s kindergarten year, we decided that we’d need to “do something” about her education. We contacted the local public school district and was told that they would not do anything, not even a simple test, until 3rd grade. Until then, the kids would be in the class according to their ages.
We brought our D to a private school. After interviewing our D, the principal told us that he would put our D in 3rd grade. But due to her small statue (she was already the second smallest in her kindergarten class), he would put her in 2rd grade just to see how she would be doing and would adjust if needed later. He told us, however, that whatever he could do, it was only to delay, not to fix, the “problem.” Besides, having her in a normal classroom, no matter what grade, would be distracting for the teacher and for other students, and torturing to her. The solution, he suggested, was “customized curriculum,” which his school was not equipped to provide.
We decided to send her to a private school (not the one mentioned above) who was famous for “above grade” curricula. I would say that their curricula were 1 - 2 grades above what offered in public school.
It was somewhat OK in her 1 st grade year. She would go to school, but was more interested in the “after school” EPGY classes. Then it got worse and worse. She kept complaining that it was boring at school, that her classmates didn’t understand her, and that she didn’t understand her classmates. 3rd grade year was horrible. She created trouble in school, wouldn’t listen to the teacher, and was sent to the principle’s office at least a few times a month (he was very understanding and never punished her). One day toward the end of 3rd grade, she just told us that she wouldn’t go to school anymore.
We then decided to chose the “customized curriculum” approach, AKA home schooling.
At 12 years old, she completed high school curriculum, with 2200 SAT (old) score (800 R, 790 M, 610 W), 800 SAT2 Physics, 790 SAT Math2, 800 SAT2 USHist, 5 AP Physics, 5 AP English. We knew that she was academically ready for college curriculum. But her mental state was not ready for college life.
We kept her at home and kept her challenged with college-level classes from Stanford EPGY and JHU CTY programs.
At 16, seeing she was ready, we allowed her to apply to college. She matriculated at UC Berkeley CoE, graduated 3 years later, and entered the CS PhD program.
Does she miss having friends of her age group? According to her, “absolutely nothing.” She would rather hang around with people of common interests.
Does she regret not going to the prom? She told us, “Why? It’s silly anyway.”
Does she have problem with her (lack of) social skills? Nothing that we can see. She is well-liked by the professors and her cohorts. Her students seem to like her.
Most importantly, she enjoys life and enjoys doing what she does. When asked whether she would do the same thing over again, she said, “Yes, with one exception: instead of waiting until 3rd grade, I would start home-schooling right after kindergarten.”
@Pizzagirl, I agree with you as well. Sacrificing academics for any type of “winner takes all” field, be that sports, pop music, acting or even fine arts would never be easy for me. I still introduced those career choices to dd, but she summarily dismissed all but fine arts for that reason. Even for fine arts, she won’t completely sacrifice academics.
However, I personally think (without any proof) that those parents had a good reason to do so, and decided to support that passion because it was still the best thing to do for the kids, after considering all their options.
My eldest son was in Cornell summer school and this boy and parents showed up on campus just before my son came home for a 2 week break. People at the university are genuinely excited to have him there, and I am sure he will get a very warm welcome and great support from students, faculty and staff. He is lucky his parents can move to Ithaca to give him such an opportunity.
That said, my own son, while not at that level, did struggle with being different in elementary school.
Local colleges can give the extra challenge needed without having to remove a child from his peers by age.
It is a compromise, because he was at times bored in public school, but Saturday and summer programs at local colleges certainly helped to motivate him at a young age. As they get older, there are more and more opportunities to enrich, such as independent research, AP classes in HS etc.
@pentaprism, but I would have suggested to the parents of the boy in the article that they try to do what you did–keep the kid in high school home schooling as long as he can still be challenged. He hasn’t come close to exhausting the academic opportunities out there, and another year or two in high school could have made his college experience better.
And I would not be too quick to assume that a 12 year old knows exactly what he wants to do. His major choice is quite similar to the paths both his parents followed. How much else has he experienced? I actually know someone whose history is remarkably similar to this boy’s. Ended up unhappy in the wrong place, and abandoned all those years of accelerated schooling and professional training to do something entirely different.
I’m pretty surprised at the number of Olympians who do not do special high school or homeschool programs. A couple of the swimmers went to the same high school as my nephew. Other kids that he or my kids swam with at summer club programs went to the Olympic trials and almost made the team. They aren’t all super talents who have been groomed since birth (although some are physically bigger at an early age, and the ones who are successful do put in a lot more time year round). The 18 year old woman’s soccer player went to a regular high school here, played on the hs team, and also played for a club. Sure, they went to summer camps, did a lot of make up work between meets and the schools were helpful in making it work, but it can be done while having a semi traditional education.
@SculptorDad re your post #286 - sorry, but I think the community college / Cornell comparison is apples and oranges. I took all community college courses my senior year of high school (entering at age 16) before Cornell because we didn’t have AP back then, so I do think I have a pretty good basis of comparison.
All of the activities and possibilities for life outside the classroom - and they are innumerable at Cornell, not so much at community colleges, are just not comparable. I’m not sure what difference it makes if the 12-yr old is a boy or a girl.
Look, these parents are doing what they feel is best for their own kid academically; we all do. And yes, I’m sure, as you pointed out, that he will meet fellow students more “open-minded” than me. I think it’s awkward on both sides, that’s just my feeling. And I think (again, just my opinion) college should be about much, much more than academics. I’m sure your D is a delightful young lady, and likely way smarter than me, and I would be looking to her for help in calculus.
But what’s the rush to grow up? Don’t know about most of you, but life as a child was a whole lot easier!
@NinaReilly
" I’m not sure what difference it makes if the 12-yr old is a boy or a girl."
Not “a” boy and “a” girl. My suggestion was that “the” boy in the op could be so much more mature and smart than “my” girl that he could do the same at cornell what mine did at a community college, at the same age.
What bases do I have for this assumption? I met a few boys & girls who were indeed so much more gifted and mature than mine that it seem like they could do fine if they went to Cornell at 12. And based on the op description, the boy seemed more similar to the other prodigies I know than my less gifted daughter.
Mine is 3 deviation above in IQ, which means she would be three in a thousand, quite common. But someone with 4 deviation above means three in a hundred thousand, only one among a hundred kids like mine. You won’t see them often. The magnitude can’t be easily comprehended unless you met them.
There is no rush. If we were rushing than she wouldn’t be starting to a high school this Fall. What she is is how she is born. We all know that life as a child is whole lot easier. For some, it’s not a choice though.
You are too defensive - this isn’t a thread about your daughter, or even other prodigies you have known, because she/they did/does/do not have the same experiences as this boy; it’s about a boy and family none of us know!! I hope you’re right and he will be fine and happy; I will be curious to see where he ends up in 10 years.