2 million minutes

Pre-College Issues High School Life
21

<p>"It isn't very different in the states. Why do you think people strive so hard for ivies? Because they know an ivy education means better paying jobs for the future. Why do you think people strive for accelerated medical degrees? Because they know it saves them a year of tuition and means an extra year of a six figure salary. Why do people want to go to Wharton? Why do people want to get onto Wall St.? "</p>

<p>Ya, but they follow what they like. If they like business they'll do it. Although they work hard for good jobs it's jobs that they'll like.</p>

<p>It's VERY unlikely that all the people in India who go into IT or Engineering really like it.</p>

22

<p>do you even know what you're saying?</p>

<p>I don't even know where to start my argument with you, so many of your statements make no sense. </p>

<p>You're saying only the kids in india work hard because they want money in the end? so, you think business oriented people crave working 120 hours a week? no, the majority of people that enter wharton are dedicated people that want to make millions in the future. I don't even understand your argument. Kids in india can pursue whatever interests they want, just like kids here, but in the same context - they understand they won't make as much money, as kids here who pursue other careers understand as well. its all about what you WANT. do more children here pursue careers they'd enjoy? yes, i'd agree. but, they also take the toll on their future salaries and career opportunities. kids abroad, and kids here as a matter of fact, pursue high end jobs because they want job security and perhaps a mercedes. so, i'm still a little confused on what the hell your argument is. </p>

<p>Despite what you say, people anywhere can pursue anything they want - children in india can strive to become dancers or singers or whatever, but at the same time they've been brought up in a poor society and they understand that money is important in their future and so they'd rather look for a career thats in demand. in an increasingly competitive world, those kinds of careers are hard to get, and so starts the cut throat atmosphere. </p>

<p>"I'm not criticizing them. I'm just saying their motivations are different and now always for the better. And don't assume I'm lazy. Do you know how hard I work in school??? Do you know what I've done for the past 4 years for school??? Do you know what sacrifices I have had to make for school?"</p>

<p>when did i call you lazy? I said kids over there work 10x harder than you, something you, yourself, said earlier. i don't care about how hard you work, or what your sacrifices are. regardless, i won't stand for your judgment over other harder working kids.</p>

23

<p>"You're saying only the kids in india work hard because they want money in the end?"</p>

<p>No that's not what I'm saying. A greater majority of Indian kids than American kids are focused on money. That's all i'm saying. </p>

<p>I do agree that they work harder than me, you and other American kids. Nevertheless, I work pretty damn hard too. </p>

<p>I do appreciate those in other countries who study hard because they truly love science and math. However, those who do it SOLEY for money i don't. </p>

<p>How exactly am I judging them?</p>

24

<p>I'm sorry to say I don't think Americans will be able to compete with these international students. Let's not even go near the intelligence factor. The cultural difference between India/China and the U.S. is epitomized by the responses in this thread. Indian/Chinese students are taught to do whatever it takes to succeed, and American students are taught to do just enough to get by.</p>

25

<p>exactly my thoughts.</p>

26

<p>I'm sorry to say I don't think Americans will be able to compete with these international students. Let's not even go near the intelligence factor. The cultural difference between India/China and the U.S. is epitomized by the responses in this thread. Indian/Chinese students are taught to do whatever it takes to succeed, and American students are taught to do just enough to get by.</p>

<p>i agree with you
sadly it's true
The majority of Americans don't have the motivation that the majority of Indians or Chinese do.</p>

27

<p>
[QUOTE]
The majority of Americans don't have the motivation that the majority of Indians or Chinese do.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>It doesn't take a majority to do great things. The average Indian is probably poor and working har dvery day to survive. The average American is probably a narrow-minded, stupid, wage earner.</p>

<p>But do you need MOST of the people in a country to be smart in order to 'keep up'? It doesn't take 300million people to make a new vaccine. It takes a handful of the smartest and most decidated people we have. I'm not saying that we work harder (we really don't) but we have the potential to work better.</p>

<p>America has better connections, opportunities, and schools than anywhere else at the moment. What we suffer from is a stagnation of the intellect and a hedonistic culture that 'just wants to have fun'. The education system needs an overhaul because even those who think they're making so much progress are seriously lacking. No one gives a damn if you were volleyball captain in the working world. They do, however, give a damn if you know your calculus and can program simulations. </p>

<p>Both systems have flaws. India and China teach buy brute memorization of concepts (which doesn't facilitate problem-solving and actual knowledge very well) and not applying them. Americans are stuck in this silly liberal education where what they learn is too little and too shallow. Let's not even talk about the average high school: the state of that is too disgusting to think about.</p>

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<p>^^^best post so far itt</p>

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<p>Thanks Luminaire :)</p>

30

<p>I talked with my APUSH teacher and a friend for half an hour about this today. Although we've gotten rid of the system in which an IQ test in kindergarten determines one's fate, the remnants still exist. To the so-called "average" kids, the administration talks of education only as a gateway to "work." We need to treat everyone like they're highly intelligent from an early age so that they have a foundation on which to build.</p>

31

<p>I agree with Silvestris for the most part, but disagree on your argument about doing great things. It may not take 300 million people to develop a new vaccine, but if you have more people that are intelligent and dedicated, the more results you will have as well. While any type of society can have a medical break through, the society with more intellects and higher standards of education will ultimately have MORE to offer a developing nation.</p>

32

<p>Statistically I agree with you. I see your point and I know it often turns out that year but when you get down to it, it only really takes a few. Some people like to make 'quality over quantity' arguments here, but I don't think anyone can fairly dismiss the entire populations of these countries as mindless automatons. So, in short, you're absolutely right. Which is why our education system or culture needs another overhaul.</p>

33

<p>My opinion is that a nation only needs 3% of its population truly dedicated and excelling to make it great.</p>

34

<p>Where does the 3% come from? Why not 2% or 4.5%? Just curious.</p>

35

<p>
[quote]
Also, keep in mind that some of our most successful entrepreneurs/innovators/whatever were not strong students.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>granted, but most strong students aren't entrepreneurs. Just to keep a reality check.</p>

36

<p>looks like i missed a lot but im replying to your original response anyway, ambition, so here it is:</p>

<p>
[quote]
classic3020 - you think you're better off than Indian / Chinese / Fill in the Blank kids because they spend their time on intellectual activities, such as the violin, instead of drinking like you?

[/quote]

No, not at all. I think our academic culture is better than theirs (while the video thinks the opposite). I'm sorry if the political correct ******** in our media has sensitized you to issues that don't even exist (i.e.- racism in my post), but please don't assume racist undertones. I was talking about their education system, not the people themselves.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Maybe you are smart, but the fact that you "put in the least effort possible" contradicts that very statement.

[/quote]

That couldn't be farther from the truth. Think of it using this common example: Jane and Ian both see a fantastic opportunity to supply water to a town. Jane puts in a ton of work, shlepping buckets of water three miles from the lake to the town. Ian, on the other hand, builds an aquedect, thereby putting in no work himself, yet still yielding the highest possibly benefits. Although Jane may work far harder than Ian, the reward gained by Ian is far greater.</p>

<p>
[quote]
If you think you're better than other kids, who like to develop and use their potential in the best of ways, than I really feel sorry for you.

[/quote]

Again, I was not implying any personal attacks. It was about the education system that our different cultures and the values that those systems instill in us.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I feel sorry for you because you, yourself, will never truly know what you are capable of and are content with "wakeboarding".

[/quote]

And you, in your equally inhibiting world-view, have a preconceived belief that engineering is more important than wakeboarding. And while I may agree, it is only our beliefs, and not fact, that makes this true.</p>

<p>Besides, I was just using wakeboarding as an example. It could be any number of things. What I was implying was the social connections gained from such activities that cannot be gained from sitting at your desk doing homework. And my personal belief (and the driving force behind this entire post) is that the ability to better connect with other people and build relationships is far more important than "book smarts" in advancing our society.</p>

<p>Think of all the people that have changed the world to a great extent. Sure, there have been some solely "book smart" people among them, but most possessed book smarts as well as a personable character and excellent oratory skills. Those skills, I believe, can be better cultivated in the American education system than they can in the Indian or Chinese education systems.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Despite what I say, what you do is up to you, but don't you dare criticize hard working children, either from India or China, America or from the Artic, for their dedication to pursuing activities that will put them better off for the future and beyond.

[/quote]

You are using your own definition of what is "better off," and that is a completely irrational approach. Like I said before, if by "better off" you mean changing the world for the better for the greatest amount of people, I can find far more examples to prove my side right than you can yours.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You're proud of the decentralized education system?

[/quote]

Absolutely. I don't believe in socialized medicine and I sure as hell don't believe in socialized education.</p>

<p>
[quote]
When you apply for a six figure job and the chinese kid you made fun of gets it instead of you, maybe you'll reminisce and think the drinking and relaxation growing up was surely worth the chance at a bigger house and better lifestyle.

[/quote]

My "drinking and relaxation growing up" are helping cultivate the very tools I need to succeed in the business and political world and get those "six figure" jobs you speak of. Again, it's about relationships and personability. Education is very important, don't get me wrong, but as a businessman I would rather have a drinking, smoking, wakeboarding, amiable employee who can bring in the big clients than an absolutely brilliant individual who may be great at vector calculus. The problem is, vector calculus doesn't bring in big clients. The "math nerds" (excuse my vocabulary) are creating the figures and analysis for the presentation that the big shots at the company are giving to the clients. And that's fine, it's just not the position I want to be in.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Either way, you can do whatever you want. Just don't **** me and other kids on CC off by ranting about successful and goal orientated children. They're are going to end up higher and better off than you.

[/quote]

Oh I love how the glass ceiling works :). What you mean by "successful and goal oriented children" are key to the success of any business, nation, or anything else you may be running. By themselves, however, those qualities that you're lauding so loudly are nothing more than what they are on paper. There is little substance to them by themselves.</p>

<p>
[quote]
It's because of people like you that this country's education system is in a hole and why future generations are in desperate need of help.

[/quote]

You're so pleasant. :)</p>

<p>
[quote]
Meanwhile, India and China are booming with brilliant minds and growing economies.

[/quote]

I don't refute that at all. I completely agree.Especially regarding India. China isn't going to mean **** in 50 years, but that's another topic for another time (ask me if you really want to know). </p>

<p>
[quote]
Be happy with what you have now, because the luxuries you think you have now will mean nothing in the future.

[/quote]

What are they just going to disappear into thin air? I'm not catching your drift here...</p>

37

<p>
[quote]
China isn't going to mean **** in 50 years, but that's another topic for another time (ask me if you really want to know).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>what's that supposed to mean?</p>

38

<p>
[QUOTE]
Although Jane may work far harder than Ian, the reward gained by Ian is far greater.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Ian has to either work for the money to pay for the labor and materials or gather the materials and do the labor himself.</p>

<p>I do, to some extent, agree with you, but I just couldn't stand this analogy. I would consider the American educational system to be broken, but I can't think of a single educational system that isn't.</p>

39

<p>Hi,</p>

<p>I've been reading this for a while now and I would just like to offer my own 2 cents.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Sure, Indian and Chinese kids are smarter, but they only memorize facts and spute them out again. They cannot apply these to situations because they spend their time on remote memorization.</p>

<p>And about so many of the kids wanting to be engineers and etc. they do that because those are the jobs that get a lotta money. They study so much for money and good jobs. They're not all geniunely interested in those subjects.</p>

<p>In the US you can do whatever job you wanna do. That's what's so great about the US.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Wow! Generalize much? It’s completely illogical to make statements like that based on such a large population. While it may be true for some, it certainly may not carry any grain of truth for others. Moreover, you think this 'big-bucks' ethos is only prevalent in China and India? You think that all those potential I-Bankers in the States want to go into finance because they love it? You think the American 'med-heads' all want to become doctors for their love of helping people? Naivety in its highest form! :) No I'm joking...but my point is that you'll find this capitalist ethos in most countries. We can no longer play the idealists; we are in a world that values monetary gain and wealth very highly, and it would be foolish to think otherwise.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
They were implying that the girl who went to school, then to practice violin, then to homework, then start again was using her time wisely. I couldn't disagree more. She's going to be a great engineer someday, but that's all she's ever going to be. An engineer.</p>

<p>I, on the other hand, am what that video would probably call a stereotypical American smart kid. I get great grades putting in the least effort possible, and I do it all having fun. I do maybe an hour of homework a week (even with 5 APs) and spend more time wakeboarding than studying and a hell of a lot more time drinking than playing the ****ing violin. And I think i'm a better person because of it.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>I'm sure your social skills are unparalleled and I commend you on that!:P But how does excessive studying correlate to poor social skills. People are very casual with their generalizations on this thread! Just because they are aggressive students does not automatically equate to poor social skills.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
The main motivation in India is money, a good job and a good salary. However, here's it's what you like. If you like dance you do dance. If you like physics you do physics. It all depends on what you think is better, knowledge or money. I've been taught that it's better to do something because you like it and not because it's good for college. It applies to this situation.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Lol I know it seems that I have some personal vendetta against this particular poster but I am just in disbelief at your naivety and your idealistic attitude towards American culture. The Unites States is, without doubt, the most capital driven country in the world where people would sell their left testicle to earn a buck. This 'Good Job-Good Salary' motivation is just as prevalent in the States as it is in China and India, perhaps even more so. Of course, you will find people here who will follow their passions! But most will only do so to the extent that they can still live a relatively comfortable lifestyle.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
I'm not criticizing them. I'm just saying their motivations are different and now always for the better. And don't assume I'm lazy. Do you know how hard I work in school??? Do you know what I've done for the past 4 years for school??? Do you know what sacrifices I have had to make for school?</p>

<p>NOOOO</p>

<p>So don't assume I'm some retard who doesn't know what he's talking about.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Don't assume that every Chinese and Indian student is a money-driven whore either.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
A greater majority of Indian kids than American kids are focused on money.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Another serious generalization that has nothing to back it up! Come on!...If you're going to make such rash statements then you prove them!</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
I agree with Silvestris for the most part, but disagree on your argument about doing great things. It may not take 300 million people to develop a new vaccine, but if you have more people that are intelligent and dedicated, the more results you will have as well.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>No, not necessarily. If you've ever studied economics then you'll understand the concept of 'diminishing power of employment'.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
China isn't going to mean **** in 50 years, but that's another topic for another time (ask me if you really want to know).

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Haha, I can't wait to hear this explanation!</p>

40

<p>"Jane and Ian both see a fantastic opportunity to supply water to a town. Jane puts in a ton of work, shlepping buckets of water three miles from the lake to the town. Ian, on the other hand, builds an aquedect, thereby putting in no work himself, yet still yielding the highest possibly benefits. Although Jane may work far harder than Ian, the reward gained by Ian is far greater."</p>

<p>Alright, this analogy has nothing to do with what we're talking about. If your intentions were to relate it to the topic at hand, I'm assuming an indian/chinese kid would be the Jane and you'd be Ian. If you use this analogy, you're inferring that Indians/Chinese unnecessarily study much more than you - because even though they put in alot more work, YOU in the end gain more from doing less work. This, is almost never true in real life, and its dumb to equate what we're talking about to that analogy.</p>

<p>And since other posters are interested in your explanation about China, I'll ask that you post it here, instead of a PM.</p>