Thanks, WOWMom.
DS’s GF has been in one of the programs according to the link posted bu WOWMom. No wonder DS occasionally said she was occasionally miserable due to sleep starvation.
Hmm…it seems MiameDAP’s D could be in one of such programs in her preliminary program.
Sample of one, my H thinks such lengthy hours are absolutely necessary in training in his specialty (ob-gyn) and thinks it’s “soft” not to have them. He believes you need to learn continuous care and that you need to be so well trained and drilled you know exactly what to do even if you are bone tired. He gets woken up all the time and can immediately launch into questions to ask, orders to give, tests to run, and of course when he’s at the hospital he can go from sound sleep to incision in a few minutes. He believes part of training is to make certain things autopilot so you can react in emergencies vs lose your cool. I of course have no opinion on this as I’m not in medicine.
I once heard from DS that the ob-gyn is among the most challenging rotations in MS3. It does not help that the location of the hospital he was assigned to was in another city. I think he got up very early every morning and drive there. It seems that the city is more “dangerous” than the city where his school is located. It was when we failed to deliver the car to him in time so he had to rely on a rental car.
(Do not make the same mistake as we/he did. Own the car early in your med school career! Talking about owning a car, in DS’s freshman dorm suites, 1/3 of students in his suite did not drive – they even did not have a driver license. This is very odd to me because, from where we came from, almost all high schoolers drive by either senior year or junior year. One of DS’s college friends – also a premed and later a med school student, likely started to drive 1 or 2 years after college (when he just started to date for the first time in his life.) My only interpretation is that the students from a major city drive at a much older age if they drive at all. Maybe they do not have to due to the availability of public transportation. Another difference: It seems that many people from a large city do not know how to ride a bike.)
"Own the car early in your med school career! " - We made sure that D. has a car when she was ready to drive the next day after her 16th birthday. I also told her to make sure that she is a driver and not let any friends to drive her as I trusted her more than others. We made sure that she has enough driving experience before she goes to college. I do not understand the idea of sending a kid out of town without sufficient driving experience at home. There is no guarantee, lots of things on a road could not be covered by any amount of experience, but I felt that the absolute minimum that we as parents could do was to make sure that she has as much driving experience at home as it was possible. She still drives the same car, despite of us urging her to buy a new one…but she started warming up to the idea that the new car is inevitable in a near future. One cannot rely on public transportation for the early morning shift or very late departure and many other totally irregular schedule situations in medical student and resident’s life. And driving to numerous residency interviews, including off hours flights…etc. , D. had about 26 interviews (specialty + prelim year programs) - that would not be possible at all without driving a car. At some point, she had a logistical nightmare of having 6 interviews in a raw at different locations. Flying was simply out of question in this case, she would not be making to interviews and mandatory per-interview dinners on time.
^ Agree that parents should enable their child to drive before college. Somehow at DS’s college, relatively few students drive while on campus. His driving skill was not as good as his peers who attended a local college where it seems everybody drives regularly. I do not know know the reason. Maybe NE people just do not drive as much as people in other region because of “bad” weather?
In college years, one “homework” during every one of his breaks back at home was for him to drive. But since he does not need to drive on campus, he lacks the motivation. I think he really belongs to the new generation who tends to drive less. He has the car on campus now. But it seems even though he drives to grocery stores, he still does not drive very much. Maybe when his GF was still in the same town, he drove more ( At that time, he occasionally sent us pictures he took, showing the new places which are accessible by car. I think she sent the pictures to her family also, when DS sent them to us.)
I do not know how many interviews DS has had. He did not tell us. (We have really got off the helicopter!) But it seems he mentioned he might cancel a few of them in order to save some traveling cost. Hopefully he could still go to at least 10 of them (is it the absolute minimum that one should go to in order to avoid SOAP? I somehow feel that he is too lazy to apply to many just like his med school app cycle – I still remember that he even did not want to apply to any AMCAS school at the beginning! We will likely not go to his match day next March, and we are not sure whether his GF will be there at this moment. Hopefully she will be able to.)
“I think he really belongs to the new generation who tends to drive less” - you are right, it is NE thing. All kids in Midwest want to drive the next day after their 16th birthday, my D. was not any exception, she was like everybody else. From what I hear about west coast, kids are driving there also. It must be NE. I understand perfectly the situation in places like NYC. I would not drive in NYC, no way.
For most part, not having enough experience driving is a drag.
In regard to the number of residencies to apply, it largely depends on the specialty. Applicants to very selective specialties are forced to apply to a lot. And in addition, some require prelim year residency, which is totally separate. That was the reason for my D. to apply to 85 specialty (some apply to all) and about 20 prelim programs. She was lucky to receive 12 invites to specialty and 14 to prelims. But this discussion does not really belongs in this thread.
Just wanted to chime in about driving in NE. Absolutely not true. We’re in the northeast and both my kids and all their friends have been driving as soon as they were allowed (17). They learn driving in the snow early on so it doesn’t bother them. Son survived the Boston winter last year and he has a car on campus. He drove to all but one of his interviews. Some over 5 hours. He has an interview in NYC this coming week and is planning to drive there also.
@MiameDAP, 85! Holy Cow! The interview rate seems to be higher for him, (likely because of a less competitive specialty?) I guess the number of invites could be around a dozen (but could be fewer because of cancellations.) Not sure whether these are preliminary or category. Don’t tell and don’t ask.
I do not know the exact number DS applied to. But definitely not that many. He seems to choose many that are only accessible by train – most cities in NE are accessible by train anyway. (but in the end, he chose to fly to several ones because it is faster, using a particular airport as his “hub airport” to fly out. Somehow he did not choose a closest airport as his hub airport to fly out.)
Whenever I see something like this…
I am always bemused. So provinical!
Driving 5 hours often won’t even get one to the nearest major city in the wide open spaces of the Rockies. The kidlets often drive 5 hours each way just to go skiing or ice climbing for a day. In fact, depending on where one lives in the West, you may need to drive 5 hours just to get to a (as in any) shopping mall.
applying to 85 residencies! Wow
BTW…how much does it cost to apply to each one?
ERAS application fees are dependent on the number of programs applied to.
1-10 – $97 (total)
11-20 – $11 each
21-30 – $16 each
31 and above – $26 each
so 85 programs would be (97+110 +160+1430) or $1797
I can’t remember offhand if each program charges a secondary fee like med schools do.
^ The above info could enable a “nosy” parent to find out how many programs his/her S/D has applied to. LOL. (Not that I am going to do this.)
I highly about DS would have spent $1797 just for the application fees. Maybe his total cost could be not much more than that (since it seems he mostly took trains to nearby cities for his interviews. This is one of the few nice things for being in NE where you could get to almost any major cities by train, and there seem to be a lot of programs in less than four cities only, say, NYC, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Boston.)
I might be mistaken, but I swear that it used to be that 11-20 were just a flat rate - I thought I applied to 20 or 25 - adding a couple programs simply because it wasn’t going to cost me any more, then got II’s at 16, interviewed at 9. That was 7 years ago though. It doesn’t surprise me though the AAMC is taking advantage of students - simultaneously encouraging applying broadly (with supportive data) and then increasing the fees…all for a service that is electronic and probably only incurs marginal extra costs after the initial account creation.
“applying to 85 residencies! Wow” - No, you missed few 85 - specialty + 20 prelims = 105. She was aiming at 10 specialty interviews. she got 12, several in NE - these were huge surprise. Some people applied to more, like ALL specialty programs, every single one in the country. D. did not think that her number was high, most likely like average. She also had 14 prelim interviews. Fortunate result - got her top choices in both prelim and specialty. The cost of application was about $2K, then you need to add the cost of all this flying and staying at the hotels. While some prelims were paying for hotels, specialty did not. Why would they, there were so many “the next in line”, they did not need to attract anybody. As an example of one place (I believe it was D’s #3), the number of applicants was 500, they choose 15 for interview (of course, no choice of the date, all 15 were interviewed in one day) to fill 2 spots. D. was among invited.
Very interesting info. Question for you veteran parents out there - how do folks typically finance med school education? We are at a position where we might be able to help her out a bit - but she’s on her own for the most part. Do they all take loans for the entire amount (the tuition, fees, living expenses etc)? Are these loans subsidized in any way (interest free until graduation)? Are there any special requirements to qualify for these loans or do all students get them?
All I know about FA is that the med school is no longer as “generous” as UG college, when the school still has the need-based FA. They require the students to take out “unit loans” (it seems all students who need FA are required to take out the same amount each year.) Also, they still expect the parents to contribute the amount determined by the school (not by the parents). I think if the parents do not pay the “parents contribution” for whatever the reason it may be (I heard this would be the same even though the “kid” is 40 years old), the students are eligible to whatever amount they need (to some reasonable limit.) So, if the parents are able and willing to pay the parents’ contribution, they are on hook for another 4 years. (This is our case. Roughly speaking, we only paid the parents’ contributions.)
In our case, student loans + parents contributions + school’s need based scholarship = cost of attendance (including both tuitions and fees and living expenses.) The cost of attendance for the 3rd year is over $80K, less fir other years. (I think the 3rd year is the the longest - almost 12 months, instead of, say, 9 months.
Other schools may have a different policy. But in general, for most students, in terms of OOP cost, the “deal” for the students/their family is worse for med school than for UG college.
Not all loans are created equal. Some Federal loans are better than other Federal loans. For example, I think the government pays for the interests for the Perkins loans, but not for the Federal Direct loans. DS also has some loans from the institution (called alumni loans.) Even though it has no interest while still in school, its interest is higher after graduation. If the parents are financially capable of paying off all these institution loans by graduation, it is like free loans for 4 years (unfortunately, this is not the case for us.)
This is only one data point. Other school’s policy may be different. (e.g., I noticed a few years ago that a few other schools do not have the parents contribution component.)
Most students finance med school through loans. Med students can borrow up to $40.5K/ year in unsubsidized federal loans. (Current interest rate is 5.84%) There are no federally subsidized loans for graduate or professional students. There is no federal grant aid for professional school.
Students may borrow up to a combined aggregate total (undergrad and professional school) of $224K in federal direct loans.
Additionally, med students – provided they have a good/clean credit record – can borrow Grad Plus loans for up to a school’s published COA. (Current interest rate is 6.84%) These loans are also unsubsidized.
Student can defer repayment of federal loans during med school, but interest will accrue and be rolled over into the principal each year.
Even at the most generous med schools (Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Chicago), students are required to take out a mandatory unit or base loan of $30-40K/year before any need based aid will be awarded. For need-based aid, a EFC will be determined using parental & student incomes & assets (and spousal income & assets if married). Parental financial info is required even if a student is married, has been living independently for years or is older (well into their 30s or even into their 40s). If parental info is required for the first year, it will be required for all 4 years.
Private med schools may offer some privately financed loans that are don’t accrue interest during med schools or that have a lower interest rate than fed loans.
But, private loans are not subject to federal rules for loan repayment, loan forgiveness, or the various income based repayment programs offered to young physicians.
All med students who are US citizen or PRs will qualify for federal direct loans ($40.5K/year) unless they have student loans which have gone into collection or have a bankruptcy that is less 5 years old. Students do have apply for federal loans by filing FAFSA no later than April 15. (At some schools, parents are also required to file a FAFSA.)
For Grad Plus loans, a student must have a clean credit record.
Private medical schools often require students & parents to file NeedAccess–which is like the CSS profile for med school. (Only even more intrusive…) The deadline for filing this is around April 15. If NeedAccess is required, the school’s FA dept will send a unique link to the student to access the NA form for a particular school.
There are a few program that will pay for med school and provide a living expenses stipend; however, these all require repayment in the form of service post graduation.
HPSP is the military version. It requires enlisting in a service branch, completing a military residency and serving X years as military physician. All specialties are open to HPSP students, subject to the needs of service.
<a href="http://www.goarmy.com/amedd/education/hpsp.html">http://www.goarmy.com/amedd/education/hpsp.html</a>
NHSC is the civilian version. It requires a minimum of 4 years service as a primary care physician in federally designated medically underserved area. NHSC students must complete a residency in a primary care field. Family medicine, pediatrics, general internal medicine, or OB/GYN. Psychiatry is currently allowed and has been allowed in the past, but this seems to change from year-to-year.
<a href="https://nhsc.hrsa.gov/scholarships/">https://nhsc.hrsa.gov/scholarships/</a>
BTW, not all medically underserved areas are in the middle of Nebraska. Some are at inner city hospitals in the NE.
Some states offer their own version of NHSC to in-state students who then go on to work within the state.How do residents handle their loans while in the residency program (or even in fellowship)? I seem to hear there is something called forbearance, but I do not know what it means. But my guess is that the interest keep acruing but the residents do not have to pay back either principal or interest while there are in forbearance. Is this correct?
Can a private loan be put into forbearance or is it only federal loans that can be put into forbeerance?
BTW, @WOWmom, if I remember it correctly, in DS’s case, the base unit loans are slightly less than the number you quoted if the number you quoted is per year (but your number is close enough, only a slightly larger.)
But this is probably because the school “helps the students to raid their parents’s bank account” (i.e., they are not shy to ask the parents to pay their share.) So the OOP money comes from either parents’s current income or assets, or students’ future income, i.e., student loans. (It seems both UTSW and BCM would not help the students to get their parents’s money so much – if my memory serves me well.) What matters the most is how much break would the school be willing to give (But the break given by the school could be different each year. I think DS had the biggiest break in the first year – likely because our family was poorest in that “base year.”)
There are any number of ways to deal with loans during residency. Forbearance is one of the options.
https://students-residents.aamc.org/financial-aid/article/grace-deferment-and-forbearance/
Every private loans has its own rules. Your son would need to contact his lender and ask what repayment options the lender offers.
AAMC has a huge section of its website which explains various different repayment options along with sample repayment scenarios.
https://www.aamc.org/advocacy/meded/79048/student_loan_repayment.html
The only caution I would offer is to any future med student counting on the 10 year public service loan forgiveness (PSLF) program. Congress has been scaling back this program and certain professions may be excluded in the future. (Apparently, PSLF was never intended to include those who enter “high paying” professions such as medicine and the law. Or Congressional aides who among the largest group filing for PSLF.) A cap on the amount of loan forgiven has been proposed. The limit would be $57500.
@mcat2 - I think the unit loan option is available for only a few schools which also require parents to pay a share. From what I can see, if parents can afford 50k and student takes 30k on top, the school does not need to do anything. 
@WayOutWestMom Are there any loan forgiveness programs with NIH doing research or something like that?