found an old thread ('08) talking about this. rather than up it, thought i would look for more current advise.
DS looking at Rollins College 3/2 pre-engineering program, wants to do crew, and this school is where he would like to do that. I think he could benefit from a smaller environment, but concerned about the lack of engineering at the school.
Anyone done this there or at other LAC’s? Input is appreciated!
Anytime I see this brought up, the consensus is that it’s not a good idea. Typically, kids don’t want to leave their friends and connections at one school after 3 years, missing out on the fun of senior year.
Added to that is that you need to make sure financial aid/merit doesn’t change when going from the first school to the second. Posters typically say that they believe kids don’t get the same level and have to pay more for the second.
There are some LACs that have engineering so maybe look into some of those as well. A few ideas offhand would be Lafayette, Bucknell, Union, and Trinity (CT),
What is PRE-engineering? Engineering does not need “PRE”, it does not require Grad. school at all? What they are doing in PRE-engineering programs?
Pretty easily answered with a google search. http://www.rollins.edu/catalogue/special_degree_programs.html Essentially completing the math and science prerequisites for engineering so only 35 semester hours are left to complete the engineering degree.
ABET accreditation requires at least 45 semester hours of engineering course work in schools where 120 semester hours is the usual number over four academic years (15 semester hours per semester). So unless the student at the “3” school completes at least 10 semester hours of engineering course work there, s/he would need more than 35 semester hours of engineering course work after transfer to the “2” school. In practice, many engineering departments require more than 45 semester hours of engineering course work, so it may be a crowded schedule after transfer (the two years at the “2” school would have schedule space for 60 semester hours).
It also looks like Rollins as the “3” school limits the student’s choice of majors there.
Transfer admission to the “2” school may require a high GPA or be competitive, and financial aid at the “2” school is at the discretion of the “2” school (and may differ from that at the “3” school); check the “2” schools. A student-athlete would also have to leave his/her team at the “3” school and try to make the team at the “2” school (and figure out how athletic eligibility would work in his/her situation of five total years with a transfer).
There is pre- a lot of things for undergrads where there is not a direct admit to the school/college within a university. Prebusiness and preengineering come to mind. Those students take courses required for their major in other departments and need to apply and be accepted based on their college work plus any other items, such as essays.
Look for some old threads in the Engineering section. In general, most families have at first found it an appealing possibility but later decided not practical.
Rollins is the cutest school ever! I loved it, but would not have suggested it to my daughter who had engineering dreams . We looked at a few schools with the 3/2 programs, and I think the LACs are just too small to support the first 2 or 3 years of engineering. One school we looked at (and it was really small) had only 5 math professors in the entire department and those profs had to teach math to non-majors too. What if you don’t like one? What if the courses aren’t offered in the order you need them? She even found Smith, which has a full engineering program (but no specialty, just general engineering), too limited in offerings.
Ask how many students successfully transfer to the second school and what their choices were. Could they get into the engineering specialty they wanted? Did all credits transfer?
Another perspective, anecdotal perhaps :
Over the life of a career, the 3/2 program may have additional benefits. My brother started with a denomination college, then finished his civil engineering degree at Michigan Tech. When starting out more he was brought into upper level meetings with clients much sooner than his peers because of having speech /communication classes – he could handle public speaking and convey ideas to non-engineers much better. After the recession hit Michigan so hard 2008-2010 he was able to get hired more quickly - in this instance as a consulting engineer for an insurance company because he could actually write. Over the long haul, those liberal arts core classes were of great benefit to him.
There are some benefits to 3/2 engineering programs:
You can graduate in 5 years with 2 undergraduate degrees.
For students who have interests outside of engineering, it gives them time to pursue those.
Taking the basic math and sciences courses at a LAC allows more one-on-one time with faculty.
Some students do better in a small college.
…
I can’t think of any reason why this wouldn’t be a perfectly good path for some students. Some students who start the 3/2 path may change their minds, but what’s the drop out rate from engineering programs at universities; other colleges? I’ve read several comments on this site in opposition to 3/2 programs, but not one backed up with solid data. How many students who begin the program drop out before transferring from the LAC? How many drop out after transferring? Is there any followup outcomes data? There is no data.
Personally, if I were seriously considering such a program, I would call as many colleges/universities as I had energy for and ask for information about the graduation rate and outcomes data of there engineering students who transferred from 3/2 and pre-engineering at LACs. I’d contact major companies and ask what they’re looking for in new hires and what their opinion is of such programs, etc.
3/2 programs exist for a reason. Why? Just Marketing for struggling LACs?
I suspect they could be a good option for certain kinds of students. And why not?
For the engineering program at the 2nd school, what is the admissions criteria? What is the COA?
I don’t think 3/2 programs are a bad idea- just that parents and students should realize that many engineering programs offer a 5 year BS plus MS option for strong students… so they are comparing apples to apples.
5 years for two degrees sounds appealing. Which is more valuable- two undergrad degrees or a BS and Master’s?
Work that through before making a decision. And figure out how much “rigor” your kid is actually looking for in these foundational courses. Freshman physics with a bunch of pre-meds who are basically gunning for an A while getting their ticket punched is likely very different than Freshman physics with a bunch of engineering students who live, eat and breathe physics. So it’s not a hassle or burden- it’s something they love. Does your son excel when he’s in a study group with kids who are passionate about what they are studying, or does he want to plow through the material in the most efficient/least painful way possible?
Those foundational courses (calc, physics, material science) are going to “feel” very different depending on the students sitting in the seats and labs next to him. IMHO.
However, for this purpose, the “3” school needs to be chosen to allow a major there in the other subject of interest. Many “3” schools restrict the major there to physics, chemistry, math, or CS (or some subset of those) (Rollins appears to require at least a minor-level concentration in one of these subjects, making it more difficult to major in something else there). Some other “3” schools (e.g. Brandeis) do not restrict the major there (i.e. one can major in a humanities or social studies subject there), as long as the pre-engineering courses are also taken.
I would also call the “2” schools on the list (Case, WUSTL, and Columbia come to mind) and find out what their requirements for admission are plus the number of students accepted into the program and the time it takes for them to graduate (is it really 2 years). My DD has been accepted to Case directly, but in my dealings with them the administration and undergraduate advisers have been very helpful.
An older relative and a few LAC classmates went the 3-2 route without issues. Older relative ended up working as a licensed civil engineer with a PE license for several decades until retirement and still gets far more calls for consulting work than he can feasibly take on.
LAC classmates ended up doing fine at my LAC and at Case and Columbia SEAS for their engineering degrees.
From what I gathered from taking some STEM courses for majors(CS) and from having STEM classmates in other classes is that while the STEM departments are strong, it’s not the level of cutthroat competition or Profs leaving things to TAs/TFs like my friends experienced at many RI universities or that I witnessed firsthand while taking a summer stats course at an elite U*.
I’d call Rollins and ask if they could put me in touch with some of the students who have done the 3/2 program - what they did and did not like about it. Every time this subject has come up there seem to be very few if any people who have any actual experience with it.
Why LACs and not consider small universities with an LAC vibe
Bucknell
Lehigh
Lafayette
Rochester
etc
And then there is Harvey Mudd
Case Western Reserve University (the Western Reserve used to be a separate LAC)
What characteristics of LACs are you finding desirable?