I ended my freshman year with a 3.4 GPA and plan on majoring in Econ. Trying to get up to 3.6-3.7 for law School. My parents aren’t too thrilled. How bad is a 3.4? Is it possible to get that up? Any input is appreciated.
@viklovin A 3.4? Average (probably above average for freshmen). You have maybe 4-5 more semesters to pull it up. I. think @Vandy93 was an econ. major so can comment. You should be able to make mostly A’s if you try. Consider this, if you even pull 3.8 with the same amount of credit hours, you will ascend to a 3.6 and you’ll hit 3.7 if you repeat junior year. Just work hard and make it happened. Also, don’t refer to your parents. It is more about you and your future plans. Regardless of what your parents think, a 3.4 clearly isn’t cutting it for any top tier (especially T-14) law school, so you know you need to improve. It isn’t about what we (or your parents) think and more about the law school admissions patterns. A 3.4 from one selective school (especially a research 1) will not trump GPAs at other selective or non-selective that are in the range you specify. You would have to be in a pretty hard major and score really well on the LSAT and even then there will be no certainty.
For evidence that you are average (for a Vandy student period, not just a freshman) and not off to the worst start: http://www.vanderbilt.edu/greek_life/about/academic-membership-stats.php
Check the all women’s or all men’s averages in the Fall 2015 report. It gives some clue of the average grading patterns at Vanderbilt. Folks at any school with Greeklife can do this. You aren’t the only one. This isn’t HS. Grading is different, the competition is different, some classes are harder (if not significantly), and your time is structured differently. Just learn from this year and adapt and you can probably return to HS like grades if you plan well.
I can’t speak for everyone but I would say most students follow an upward trend.
Yeah I was an econ major. I’d guess a 3.4 is about average for an econ major, but I’m not sure exactly what the average econ GPA is. As Bernie said it is not anywhere near good enough for a selective law school. Law schools also don’t really care that much about where you went for undergrad. At a pre-law session I was told that a 3.68 at Vandy is equivalent to a 3.72 at MTSU. The good news is that there is plenty of time to improve your GPA, and even if you don’t you can get in somewhere with a 3.4.
Personally, I’d recommend you take the easiest classes possible. Usually I would recommend that econ majors take lots of math and CS classes, but as your goal is law school don’t. I assume you took the first two intro classes. For electives I’d take Sports Econ with Vrooman (easy as he tells you all the test questions in advance and all tests are MC) and his advanced seminar and Healthcare Econ with Rennhoff. Take Intermediate Micro with Rennhoff and Macro with Saggi if possible. Those two are the best econ professors I had and are very clear. Avoid Conley(truly a horrible prof-unhelpful, unclear, and arrogant), Zissimos(nice lady but her English skills need serious improvement), Kim(again a nice guy but his English skills also need work), and Wooders. Wooders was my advisor and was truly the most unhelpful person I ever had(never returned emails, wasn’t at her office hours, etc.). I never took a class with her, but from what I’ve heard she cannot teach for her life.
It’s definitely going to be hard to get your GPA up, but not impossible. I followed an upper trend after freshmen year.
You have tons of time to weigh this out. Use your academic advisor and your best sense to spread out your difficult courses with those that might play to your strengths. Of greater import for Law school than GPA --in the entry to law school game tied to any loan reduction money offered–is the LSAT. Our son prepped two times for the LSAT and took it two times. He knew that the second sitting was about his best outcome. Also he worked for two years which I highly recommend. People in law school today have often had careers and graduate degrees in things like accounting or engineering–or have been deployed. Not so much rooms full of 23 year olds anymore. In most cases–IMHO, you may be wiser to matriculate when you are 25 rather than 23 if you want to be at a better place in life and in maturity for your immersion experience into law school. Law school is very tied to debt management planning and strategizing due a poor market for entry level jobs, and if you did well on standardized testing for undergrad, this talent may carry over for you to the LSAT. This is the good news you may rely on. You do have to make decisions in course selection to maximize your GPA. This is really too bad because it is a shame that such concerns can stop young students from taking courses that are challenging and might result in Bs. Whatever you do, do not go blindly into law as a profession without your eyes wide open. It is a profession with a reduction now and ahead. Everyone believes they will be the exception to this reality, even our Vandyson. OK, regarding Course Selection, take Logic which I believe counts as a quantitative course. Take it seriously. Vanderbilt has great people teaching this course. Try to master the course. Top law schools dot com and law school numbers dot com will address myth vs facts on what it takes to get in. Getting in is not the most important thing to figure out if your parents can’t pay cash for you. Their income is required at most good law schools. This is very jarring for most families considering the dicey Return on Investment in starting salaries in a sluggish entry level job market. The most important thing is to hit 170 plus on the LSAT if you can. (senior year spring term is only for savant test takers in my opinion) And to have a good GPA. A great GPA might be expected in non STEM majors. You can take LSAT prep courses right off campus at Vandy. But your mind may not be ready or clear if you are very busy at Vandy. An adcom might give a break to a quantitative student who took more difficult courses. And to develop a narrative if possible on why and how you will use law school. My husband is a lawyer from Vandy Law and do you know how hard it is for him to depose engineers in an unforeseen digital age? Do you know how much law firms like engineer lawyers and accountant lawyers? If you think you can up your attractiveness for the job market do it. The T14 law school def have a much better job placement history in today’s market and tomorrow’s market. Our son took a calculated risk (as we don’t have $$ to take on a ton of his grad school tuition) and he took a generous merit offer at a school below the T14. Once you get to law schools in the lower tiers, you may be eliminating any return on investment and reducing your job prospects. There is a lot more to law school admissions than your GPA. Sadly the system is still stuck in the past and worried to death that a law school will slip even one place in ranking in a skittish market. Therefore the game does indeed sometime give the wins to those toochicken to take courses with much challenge in quantitative terms. Schools past the top 25 are looking hard for people who can pay. The reality is you should avoid them even with money offered to you to reduce your tuition. Law schools have very little infrastructure costs compared to med schools and engineering schools that require cutting edge technology. Therefore they want a certain number of full pay students to help offset costs in other grad schools in a university. This used to be AOK when entry jobs could be found. No longer. So make smart decisions. Personally, I like that your resume has two semesters of Econ in it. Bs at Vandy are no crime. You will need to play to your strengths in the near future but don’t eliminate all risks. Vandyson did one course he was flubbing badly in a summer session ($$) but we felt he deserved the second chance. You have what it takes and plenty of time to be strategic. good luck
The point about taking general logic is a good one. It does count as a MNS class for AXLE and is a very easy class(easy to get an A with almost no work). It was taught by a grad student but he was an excellent and entertaining teacher. There is also an upper level philosophy logic class. I did not get the chance to take it but I heard it was good and it may be helpful for LSAT prep.
To maximize your GPA I’d recommend taking some art history classes. Some of them such as Shaneyfelt’s are mostly memorization, so if you put in a few hours before each test you will be fine. She is also an excellent professor and I found the material very interesting. Other easy A’s at Vandy include CS 101, and some music history classes(history of country music, etc.)
Vandyson would have been magna if he had not blindly signed up for the entry speech/communication course without realizing it is a course that gives you the grade you deserved. They have high standards This was one of the best courses he took at Vandy in terms of the professors and very demanding. Many students in each class had been on good HS debate teams. It is foolish to go to law school with zero oral persuasive skills and without putting yourself through some paces on oral arguments. It can be done (skipping it)! —But you will wish you had put yourself in the ring. Vandyson overestimated his skills, didn’t memorize reading assignments and got his worst grade in this class. However what a reality check! The most valuable things you can learn aren’t easy. It is a crying shame that “law school national ranking” is such serious business now (or they can no longer attract full pay students —as job interviews are heavily awarded to T-14 law school grads). Therefore undergrads who want to go to law school are really forced to avoid courses that might give them Bs. The communications department at Vandy is quite lively and also uncompromising in grading. Consider taking one course in there when you are in a realistic, aggressive frame of mind and willing to put yourself on the line. Vandyson went to an empty classroom one night in the wee hours to practice a speech he had to give the next day memorized. When he got to class he couldn’t remember the speech. You can’t win in this class doing last minute cram sessions. In law school only one year: he has already competed for spots in moot court and in mock trial and made it to the final rounds-- before being cut. So consider getting yourself arena ready. There are more courses in the Philosophy department that are relevant to comprehending arguments in law.
@Faline2 Ah the classic Dr. English communications course.
@Faline2 : Unfortunately pre-med is the same case which kind of sucks because typically the more difficult )at least what most would consider more difficult), non-memorization based courses make prepping for the MCAT easier. However, taking them is a risk (though admittedly pre-healths can generally afford a few B’s and B+'s in STEM courses as long as overall GPA holds up) for many. Kind of a dichotomy. The fortunate thing about those at elites is that they already test well. The unfortunate thing is that the MCAT is kind of a different beast in comparison to other standardized exams or even the exams in most STEM courses as I always suggest.
Also, I like the advice you’re giving with respect to pre-law as I notice many students majoring in things such as political science or history fall into the trap of over-estimating the value of courses that appear directly related to “law” (as in content related to law…so like a class on the supreme court or something) instead of taking courses that emphasize the fundamental skills you speak of that often are indeed not found in departments that stereotypically host pre-laws. And also, I suppose your son’s success and enjoyment in that experience at his law school demonstrates the idea that it is sometimes the classes that spank us that benefit us the most in the long run. You really never know. It hurts at that point in time and you may feel oppressed or surprised by the challenge, but if fortunate, you may eventually see the value in it. Too bad such experiences are viewed as prohibitive (almost rightfully so, though small doses don’t really harm).