<p>My point (and I'm not alone on CC with this) is that kids and parents need to have "the money talk" well before kids "fall in love" with a particular school. Having that conversation after her admissions are in is frequently way too late. This is unless, of course, parents are able/willing to pay any price for school. If you are in that group, more power to ya' :)!</p>
<p>PS Application fees have nothing to do with anything.</p>
<p>weenie:</p>
<p>Your point is well taken. We have begun to address that by adding schools that may offer aid. For me to have the "money talk", I need to gather data as I am doing now and come up with rational alternatives for the college goer. Do you have a list of schools that offer such aid besides the ones you listed in your post ? What is your personal opinion about a let us say State scholl like Penn State with no aid ( which we will be able to manage) Vs a lower ranked American University with some aid. This is ofcourse assuming that the academic majors are available etc.</p>
<p>Frankly, I have a lot of learning to do. All the CC posters are about 1-2 years ahead of me. Give me time and I will read all the relevant posts and get behing the ball. All help will be greatly appreciated.</p>
<p>If you apply by end of October, you should definitely get into Penn State. You should be in the running at Lehigh, BC, Lafayette, Union.</p>
<p>gelino:</p>
<p>Do you feel that she will be able to get into Penn State - University Park?</p>
<p>mcvik:
I find the advice on the Parents Forum is generally better than here on Search and Selection, so you might head over there too and post your question again. (See if you can get Carolyn to respond.) </p>
<p>Many parents have been through this already (some several times) and the advice regarding aid tends to be more accurate on that forum (parents tend to pay attention to that stuff!). There are a couple of big threads at the very top called Master List of Merit Awards and Schools Known for Good Merit Aid which give some pretty good information.</p>
<p>In general the feeling is that you need to be in the top 15% or so of applicants statistically to get GOOD merit aid - and of course that is at schools which give merit aid. So just looking at a school's profile you can judge where your student fits. They will certainly be safety schools. For instance if your child is just an average acceptee then you probably will not get great (or maybe ANY) merit money - they are using that money to attract TOP students (relatively speaking) for their school. </p>
<p>Most of the colleges have a page somewhere on their web site where they will describe their merit scholarships. Some are very broad and automatically part of the regular application. Some are very narrowly focused. Some require extra paperwork, essays, or an earlier date. Many schools favor kids who have interviewed and "show interest." Some are perhaps less likely to offer your kid good money if they are clearly the last choice. </p>
<p>In general the false impression given here on CC is that there is TONS of merit money and kids routinely get offered full rides etc. This could not be further from the truth. This is a self-selected bunch on here - many with very very strong stats, some good story tellers, and some who confuse need-based aid with merit money. (Although sometimes that is difficult to differentiate.)</p>
<p>As far as your question about Penn State vs. a lower ranked private school: For our family choosing a "lower in the pack" LAC with a hefty scholarship made sense. (But we were looking at SUNY for our state U - not on par with Penn State.) My son would not have been happy at a really big school - but that depends on the kid! Some kids are miserable at small schools. The trick is to find the type of school your child will thrive at, for a price you can swing. For my second son a big school like Penn State (with a very strong engineering program) might fit the bill just fine. I am of the opinion though, that there is not as much difference between the 15th school in the US News ranking and the 50th school as people whould like to believe. My child is very happy and doing very well academically at a 51st ranked college. I really do not believe he would be any happier or more successful at the 11th ranked school - regardless of the $30,000 a year difference. But that depends on the kid and the family. If I could readily afford to send him to Harvard (and if he could get in), yeah, I'd send him to Harvard!</p>
<p>For many families they also feel strongly about being able to help out with graduate school, or law school or whatever. So that is often a consideration too. Also, honors programs within state universities can fit some kids wonderfully. (Digmedia's kid is a good example of that at Ohio University. Do a search for some of his posts.)</p>
<p>I have had friends whose kids have applied to schools like this: They choose, for instance, 5 DREAM - reach or match - schools and throw in an application to State U as their safety. They get rejected at 2 of the dreams, get in to the other 3 with zero or very little money. Then they suddenly realize they actually have NO CHOICE at all. They are off to State U. That is the scenario that is not good. You want your kid to have some sort of choice at the end.</p>
<p>did your D take the psat? (Schools like USC salivate over NMFs.)</p>
<p>Thanks weenie, I will post in the parents section also.
bluebayou:
Please forgive my ignorance, what is a NMF? A search did not did not give me a clue. She did take her PSAT ( do not know if she tried her best and got a 186). Her SAT was 2200.</p>
<p>For Anthropology, Biology, and English, you might consider U Penn. Why did you rule out U Penn? Just curious. Cornell and Johns Hopkins are also very strong in all three subjects and are pretty close to home for you. I see Haverford on your list but not Swarthmore. Did you consider Duke? Or Columbia? Among LACs, how about Lafayette, Bucknell, Franklin and Marshall? I am not sure how strong Georgetown is in biology.</p>
<p>Does your daughter have any thoughts about the all-female LACs?</p>
<p>I think your lists are good. Maybe narrow down based on distance.</p>
<p>Apply to about ten schools, 5 reaches, 3 matches, 2 safeties. Maybe include Penn State as a financial safety. See what kind of financial aid she gets in April, weigh all the pluses and minuses carefully, and then choose Cornell. LOL</p>
<p>I generally like what Weenie has to say. Makes a lot of sense. After reading your original post, I keep wondering, "What does your daughter want for herself?" One commonality with most of the colleges you mention is that there's an urban characteristic. That's appears to be one factor. Are there others that she can define? </p>
<ul>
<li>Large vs. small (U of Michigan vs. Bryn Mawr?)</li>
<li>Academic interests (English vs. Biology vs. Anthropology?)</li>
<li>LAC vs. National Research University vs. All-women's college</li>
</ul>
<p>What kind of personality does your daughter have? Is she a laid-back type? Would this persona factor in well to a more intense climate, e.g., U. of Chicago? Does she like the idea of an all-women's college (how social is she with guys?)? </p>
<p>Before embarking on road trips, begin to rank the list of schools you have. Based on what I can deduce, all of these schools are feasible. There are none that are unrealistic, though most are not MATCH or SAFETY either. Most of these private schools will want to see your daughter demonstrate interest in them -- and most will have an essay topic similiar to "Why are you interested in X College?" If your daughter does not convey sufficient interest to sway the AdComm, some other applicant will. </p>
<p>Perhaps your daughter will be seduced by the charm of a college campus while on tour, but she needs to know that most of her requirements will be met -- and only she can begin to define these requirements for herself. While it's good to have contingencies, sooner or later, she will have to make choices for herself. Just ask students who have applied to and been accepted by 10-12 schools... and STILL can't make up their minds. </p>
<p>It looks as if you could easily fashion road trips this summer (i.e., CMU, Penn State, Lehigh, GWU, Haverford, and Bryn Mawr all in one trip) that will give your daughter some comparative scenarios to work with. Some schools, such as Emory, may offer enough breadth and scope for her to keep many options open academically. Good luck!</p>
<p>NorCaldad:</p>
<p>Excellent points. We plan to make some local trips to let her ascertain for herself about the size of school, type of campus, coed Vs all women's etc. I have been extremely impressed by the knowledgebase of CC members. We were trying to think aloud on this forum. As far as majors are concerned, not every child is going to end up with the major they start with. Or for that matter they may not work in the field in which they graduate. She does have a romantic notion of what she would "love" to do Vs reality. I just want her to have an open environment where she can keep her options open and decide what she would really like to do.</p>
<p>Another school your daughter might consider with her considerably good SAT scores is Washington University in St. Louis. I was surprised to learn that they admitted a girl with a 3.04 GPA and SATs slightly lower than your daughter's in a book that I read (although that was in 2004). WUSTL is currently ranked #11 by USNEWS if you haven't heard of it (and I hadn't before I looked into it). That girl, as well as others I have seen that were similar to her, got in because they showed genuine interest in the school. She applied ED (which may be an option for you or may not). Schools like WUSTL and Emory seem to truly favor students that show interest in them in one way or another as they are highly ranked, yet less known than the Ivies, and are thus a bit jealous. But I think WUSTL will be in the top 10 soon enough.</p>
<p>mcvik,</p>
<p>I think you are going about matters in a good way. Ultimately, as you know, you will have to let go and have your daughter drive many of the directions she will take in her life, including college. I sense your openness and support in this. What I found I needed to do with my daughter was to not only serve as an advocate to her needs but also guide her by providing a realistic sense of scope.</p>
<p>At this juncture, if your daughter is a rising senior, she will want to take the next several months to narrow her consideration to a manageable number of colleges. At this time a year ago, my own daughter had a list of about 12 schools. By the end of the summer, she had identified two schools she liked a lot. After completing all her visits by the end of the summer, she chose one to apply to ED. Because we are in California, she needed to complete her UC applications by Nov. 30, and those were the only other apps she did. Before Christmas, she had been accepted by her first choice, and she suspended her apps process. She had been prepared to apply ED II to her second choice school and otherwise felt satisfied that any of UC Berkeley, UCLA or UC San Diego would be very acceptable to her. The ED acceptance made the rest of her senior year a lot more fun and gave her less angst than many of her friends who fretted about college decisions into May.</p>
<p>BTW, my daughter will be attending Emory University, and it's certainly a school I would recommend highly.</p>
<p>brand_182:</p>
<p>We did consider Washington U. I have also seen numbers similar to the example you have cited. Unfortunately, the factors beyond the GPA/SAT are not quantified for us. According to scattergrams for her high school, only 1 student was accepted at 1400/4.0. All others were wait listed and then denied. Some denied students had better scores and were probably trying to use WUSTL as a safety. We have considered applying ED/EA with "the" school once she feels it is the school. Then, I have feared the financial part of the equation. Frankly, I am hoping that we can get feedback on this board and in the process come up with the right strategy. I agree about your assesment of WUSTL.</p>
<p>NorCalDad:</p>
<p>We plan to fly a lot of Southwest because of one way flexibility. Also, the family vacation will be replaced by a lot driving to these schools. I shudder to see the reaction of my son. I have promised him the same attention 4 years down the road. My daugher is a rising senior so we do have 7 weeks to do the campus visits! We do plan to visit Emory. I will keep every one posted.</p>
<p>collegehelp:</p>
<p>Upenn was ruled out because of high % of valedictorians and top10% ranked students. She is solidly in Top 20%. Her school has 50 people tied at 3rd or 4th rank! Swarthmore was ruled out based on the 4.0's that were accepted from her school. Same thing with Duke & Columbia. the logic is that the next class will probably be "better"(?) than last year's class. The scattergrams are scattering our collective wisdom!</p>
<p>I would appreciate all your feedback. So, I am bumping this thread.</p>
<p>I suggest Carnegie Mellon as a top choice. It has great programs and is good at everything it does that is focused towards a career such as business/cs/engineering. They actually do give some good aid and they care a lot about SATs, E.C's, and Essays than just grades.</p>
<p>hey mcvik, i hope this helps. and i hope i dont give a negative outlook to this. </p>
<p>first of all, to a statement made by macnyc: "uchicago is all about fit". That is a common misconception about uchicago in my opinion. Many people believe that you can get into uchicago without having stellar numbers, just if you write this awesome essay. Uchicago is one of the best colleges in the nation, if not the world. Numbers are the most important to uchicago, and a poor applicant with "a right fit" isnt necessarily going to have a good chance to get in. </p>
<p>Now in terms of your applicant, i think the top 7 schools (not in the LAC) you listed are reaches. And of coures, i only say this due to my experience. I have the same SAT score, but a .25 gpa higher than your daughter. I got rejected from johns hopkins and other colleges around that "ranking": northwestern, washington univ in st louis, tufts...With the competition so severe nowadays, a top 25 school isnt so easy :/</p>
<p>in terms of safeties, BU and GWU were my safeties. instead of giving you advice to what safety ur D should apply to, i just want to give you this tip that i think is very relevant. To what ever safety ur D applies to, make sure she pays attention to that school. Do something to show that shes interested, like a visit, an interview, a phone call with an admissions rep, etc. Colleges know that students are applying to schools that they ocnsider reaches, targets, safeties. If your D completely disregards her safeties, the college MIGHT (and i heavily emphasize MIGHT) feel angry that your D thinks of their school as purely a "safety" and might reject her. You really have so little few chances in this admissions game; play the game right, and you'll win.</p>
<p>Icried11times:</p>
<p>Your point about paying attention to the safeties is well taken. So far, we feel that UPitt & Penn State may be the only true safeties. We do not plan to ignore them. Thanks for your input. You said first 7 are reaches. Do you feel any are far reaches? Based on your experience, which schools would you apply to if you had her GPA/SAT?</p>
<p>I graduated from a public PA high school last year and had stats very similar to your daughter - if you want specifics, PM me. I applied with a bio major. Of your list, I was waitlisted at UChicago and rejected from Georgetown and Cornell. I was rejected from several other top schools as well. I ended up having to choose between Penn State, American, and BU and chose Penn State. Be really careful that you look into the mid-range schools that are better than Penn State but not exactly up there with Cornell, JHU, Georgetown, etc. I don't know LACs well at all but of the universities posted Vanderbilt, Emory, and NYU stand out to me as good examples of that mid-range level of school. If I had to do it over I would take a serious look at schools such as Emory, UVA, NYU, etc. My counselor was worse than worthless; she was outright destructive by looking at my stats, telling me I had good chances at Penn and even Harvard, and then convincing me to believe it based on "30 years of experience." Admissions have changed, last year suprised a lot of people, and there's no telling what next year will bring. I have several friends who were in the same situation as I am with dream schools, Penn State, and a gap in the middle. We will all be going to Penn State next year. As is, I plan on trying to transfer after a year or two.</p>
<p>I rambled a bit there, but basically, about half of your list of universities are lottery tickets for someone like your daughter or me. If you have the time, energy, and money to do a good job of applying to them, there's no reason not to. However safeties cannot just be thrown in as an afterthought. A lot of people in PA throw in PSU as a safety because they have not really considered whether it's a place they'd actually like to attend. They should be somewhere that your daughter would still be excited to attend.</p>