My D is a high school junior with 3.7 GPA. She has scored 228 in PSAT and plans to take SAT in march- her SAT score the first time was 2070.
– Her freshman started out as 3.9 and now she is at 3.7
–(She has taken as many APS as her school allows)
– Her EC’s are - Project leader- community services; 2 unpaid internships at tufts;president of Dance club in school; Music for 10 years;
what are her chances in top 20 schools - she likes to get into neuroscience- pre med.
thank you
She sounds like a great student, but do not overwhelm with AP and suffers in GPA. Some schools put more weight in GPA. You know top 20 schools are usually reach for everybody.
My kid had a 3.7 and amazing test scores (2380 superscored SAT, SAT subject tests of 800 Lit and 800 Math II). She got in everyplace she applied 2 years ago, including U of Chicago, Swarthmore, Harvey Mudd, Carleton, and several other schools with good merit aid. But she also had great recommendations, strong essays, and some pretty good ECs (near the top of our state in both an academic and an athletic activity, although she is not pursuing the sport in college).
If she is really serious about pre-med, here is something to think about – the most important factors for admission to medical school are:
- High GPA
- Strong MCAT scores
- Some kind of experience in medicine (volunteering, summer, those are fine, she doesn’t need a research hospital experience)
- Low debt, as med school is VERY expensive.
Her GPA going into top schools will be on the low end if she gets admitted. And it is likely that she will have a hard time getting a high GPA, given the high level of competition and high quality of students at those schools. If she takes a long view of what it will take for her to get into med school, she should seriously consider schools where she is closer to the top of the pool and has a better shot at a good GPA. She doesn’t have to drop miles down in the school rankings, but just consider than an LAC with a ranking around 30 - 50 can prepare her as well for med school as a top 20 university. Or your in-state flagship might be a better route, especially financially.
Just make sure her “big dreams” have a long term perspective, and aren’t just focused on short term name recognition.
Is this 3.7 weighted or unweighted?
Thank you intparent and billcsho for the detail note.
those are really good angles it helps as we think through this
Grinnell, in Iowa, offers good financial aid and is pushing its science programs. St. Olaf, in Northfield, Minnesota, has traditionally had a good track record with graduates getting accepted to medical school.
Grinnell is a fantastic recommendation. Here are a few more:
Bates College
Brandeis University
Case Western Reserve
College of New Jersey
Emory University
Franklin & Marshall College
Grinnell College
Johns Hopkins University
Juniata College
Macalester College
Muhlenberg College
Scripps College
Smith College
St. Olaf College
Swarthmore College
Trinity College
University of Richmond
Ursinus College
Wake Forest University
Washington University (MO)
I stole all of these from the guys at College Transitions. If you google them, you’ll find their site. They have great recommendations for colleges for pre-med.
Where does the 3.7 put her in terms of rank or quartile? Is it a good GPA for her school? Is that weighted? My kid with a slightly lower unweighted was not a candidate for a top twenty, but did very well with schools just below that level.
Also, echoing intparent, if she is working incredibly hard to make a 3.7 in a high school where a good proportion of kids in similar classes have a 4.0 or higher (if weighting is applied), she may have a hard time doing well in a top 20 school. If she is really looking at pre-med, she needs to consider whether she can get a good GPA. If she slacked off in sophomore year and so has a lot of room to work harder, then she may do well at a top 20.
Of the school recommended above, Hopkins is certainly a top 20. If she wants a private U, schools like U of Rochester, Brandeis, Boston College, may be interested, and would provide a good education as well.
Maybe, maybe not. My younger son after a rough start got the same grades at Tufts than he did in high school. Nevertheless, there is a school of thought that pre-meds should go somewhere that will save money for the cost of med school and where they are likely to have a high GPA. Keep in mind that half of pre-meds change their minds about med school.
It’s very hard to predict what’s feasible. My younger son had about a 3.7 average WGPA (3.3 unweighted) depending on just what courses you counted. However at his school that translated to top 6%. He had great recommendations, wrote funny essays, and had a few state level medals in Science Olympiad even though his main strength was history. His SAT score was 790CR, 690M, 690W.
He got into U of Chicago, Vassar and Tufts and American. Rejected from Harvard (only applied because he was a legacy and Dad was pushing it), Brown, and Georgetown.
I liked Brandeis very much, but he didn’t - it seemed like a great place, very intellectual.
For pre-med specifically, the name of UG is practically irrelevant. Med. Schools care about college GPA, MCAT score, medical ECs, mature personality. My D. an many of friends had no problem getting into top 20 Med. Schools after graduating from in-state publics. Save your $$ in UG, go for Merit awards, attend ANY UG that fits personality and wide range of interests and do your best at any place.
wow… this is so helpful guys… my d has been very stressed past few months. and i am losing my hair due to this. 3.7 is unweighted; she was very focused in her freshman and did very well and then slacked off soph year and now she is back but struggling to get her gpa up. the school is good and she is not in the top 15 of her class
she wants to score well in SAT and also work hard in the next few months to get her gpa up.
. i agree - want to save money in UG and you never know she may change from premed to something else. ~X(
thank you again, this is good.
Totally agree the UG college is not so important in med school admissions although there are some feeder schools that the med schools begin to “trust” have exemplary grads. I graduated what you’d consider a bottom tier school but found my groove and achieved an excellent GPA by the end of my 4 years. Did some EC, worked nights at the college and sought out opportunities for research at the nearest med school. MCAT’s went well and got my name on some published research. I have no rare or exceptional gifts but never shied away from hard work and long nights. Interviewed at several schools, took a spot at the one I knew the professor at (from the research I volunteered to help with). The rest is history. From a virtually unknown local school to Chief at one of NY’s finest University Hospitals. I’d never have thought it possible. Now that I’ve long been friends with former admissions committee members, I can say, I, like many UG students had it all wrong. Decisions had little to do with name recognition. Med school admissions committees are looking for perseverance, maturity, academic ability, and especially how much thought the students had put into their potential future endeavor. Name of their UG school was rarely mentioned. Perhaps given two nearly identical students, the name could swing it. Regardless of UG, your D will have many opportunities to show what she’s made of. Best of luck!
It will help to really accept that it is OK if she doesn’t go to a top 20. She will be fine and may even be better off at school slightly lower in the ranks. Kids dream big, but many of her peers talking about top 20 will end up very happy to get into a top 50 school. Don’t stress out too much over this. She will do just fine.
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If she is really serious about pre-med, here is something to think about -- the most important factors for admission to medical school are: - High GPA - Strong MCAT scores - Some kind of experience in medicine (volunteering, summer, those are fine, she doesn't need a research hospital experience) - Low debt, as med school is VERY expensive.
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Her GPA going into top schools will be on the low end if she gets admitted. And it is likely that she will have a hard time getting a high GPA, given the high level of competition and high quality of students at those schools. If she takes a long view of what it will take for her to get into med school, she should seriously consider schools where she is closer to the top of the pool and has a better shot at a good GPA. She doesn’t have to drop miles down in the school rankings, but just consider than an LAC with a ranking around 30 - 50 can prepare her as well for med school as a top 20 university. Or your in-state flagship might be a better route, especially financially.
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If she’s not in the top 10% of her school, then her chances at top schools are low. Even not being in the top 1-5% makes it more difficult. Top schools have a LOT of Vals and Sals.
If she wants to go to med school, then I wouldn’t have her necessarily focus on neuroscience as a degree. It’s not necessary for med school, and it will limit her school choices…since so many don’t have that. Some “create” that degree with a combo of Bio and Psych classes.
Med school admittance is all about cum GPA, BCMP GPA, MCAT scores, LORs, and medically related ECs (volunteering, shadowing, etc). Med schools don’t care about which undergrad you go to.
How much do you want to spend each year? Do you want to help with med school costs?
(Mother of a med student who went to a mid-tier flagship on nearly a free ride.)
Many high school students think they want to go to med school. It’s something they know about, and it is prestigious. But it is often a sign of immaturity and innocence about the work world- not always, but often.
If your daughter is stressed, I would urge her not to worry so much about her future choices for major or for career. Most schools do not have a “premed” program and honestly a student can major in anything in undergrad and then decide to go to med school. And though some schools do have neuroscience, it really can be left to grad level studies, and psychology or biology can be taken as an undergrad.
There is nothing wrong with enjoying high school and going in to college as an undecided.
As for test scores, wonderful that they are so good but as a stress reliever, tell her to look at this list:
http://fairtest.org/university/optional.
I avoided knowing my kids’ GPA and scores. Maybe that is unusual but it is so hard to keep stress out of the house in this day and age, and it helped. And if your daughter is more inclined toward being undecided, she can choose a school based on location, size, courses and “vibe” and explore for a year or two.
Get some unique, sincere experience that relates to pre-med. She sounds like she’ll make it.
It depends how you look at it. The average GPA at highly selective private colleges tends to be quite high. For example, the trends on gradeinflation.com suggest mean overall class GPAs above 3.5 are quite common at such colleges. Some colleges are on pace to have a mean GPA of an A-. The higher mean GPA partially relates to a larger portion of the class doing A quality work than at most schools, but there is also grade inflation.
If you look at med school admission results at such high mean GPA colleges, it’s quite common for persons with GPAs towards the lower end of their class being admitted to med school. For example, among accepted MDApplicants members who had a 33-35 on their MCAT, the difference between the median GPA of those accepted to med school and the estimated average GPA of the overall undergraduate class for various colleges is below:
Stanford : -0.02
Harvard : 0.03
Brown : 0.04
Princeton : 0.2
MIT : 0.2
Cornell : 0.22
Berkeley : 0.36
Texas : 0.61
Arizona : 0.62
Note that Stanford, Harvard and Brown had no significant difference between the GPA of med school admits and the GPA of the overall class, while the less selective Texas and Arizona colleges had large differences between the GPA of med school admits and the GPA of the full classs. I wouldn’t assume it’s easier to be near the top of your class at Texas or Arizona than get average grades at Stanford, Harvard, or Brown. Maybe it is. Maybe it’s not. It’s also possible that the highly selective colleges had greater low-class-rank med school admit rates for other reasons besides stats, such as being more likely to have that special out of classroom factor that helped them get admitted for undergrad, being more likely to keep following their passion no matter what (many of the sub 3.0 GPA med school admits in this group had a longer and non-traditional path), etc.
In short, the point I’m making is I wouldn’t suggest choosing an undergrad college because you think it will be easier to get the grades that may be needed for med school. Such strategies may backfire, most students who are thinking about pre-med during HS later change their minds, and there are countless other important factors to consider when deciding on a college.
Regarding her chances for top 20 USNWR, there is not enough information to estimate. Instead one would need information about things like which top 20 colleges is she looking at (they have widely differing degrees of selectivity and admissions criteria that they emphasize)? Is the 3.7 GPA weighted or unweighted? Does the HS have inflated or deflated grading compared to typical? What types of classes had the lower grades? Did she achieve anything outside of the classroom that is noteworthy beyond just a HS level? Did she do anything outside of the classroom to show her passions for her field? Is there any information about LORs and essays? Any hooks?..
No one is discussing “weeding.” Some early pre-med classes can be brutal, with the intention of reducing the number of kids who remain pre-med. It is often better to find a school with a cooperative approach, rather than competitive.
The impact of a hs 3.7 can depend on which courses fell lower than A. Obviously, you don’t want B’s in science classes when you’re aiming for pre-med. And yes getting some field experience will help, the sort that brings you in contact with what medicine is about.
And she needs to be sure she’s on good terms with those LoR writers. And that they write about her academic strengths and drives- not all about her clubs and sweet smile.
I think the purpose of “weed-out” classes is not so much to reduce the numbers of pre-meds, but to encourage students who really don’t have what it takes to be successful in Medicine to go and concentrate on something else more appropriate. It’s best to find that out early as opposed to becoming a junior and continuing to delude yourself.
I also don’t think that just because you got a B in HS in a science class that means you are not cut out for pre-Med. One of D’s friends in HS got a C in AP Chem first semester Junior year of HS. When she discussed with teacher her goals and mentioned she wanted to be pre-med, he said to rethink that. Instead she dropped to Honors Chem (don’t know what grade she got 2nd semester in that). In any case, she got into a good college (top 25-35 or so LAC), retook chemistry and has decided to be chemistry major (and pre-med). After freshman year, she got a position working in a lab and is now doing biochem research as a sophomore with a professor at her college. She is apparently on track with her pre-med requirements as well. So my point is, you just don’t know what will necessarily happen.