<p>Given that college has become such an expensive proposition over the last decade, many families are straining to put aside enough money to cover the 4-year cost of attending. But is four years really accurate as a measure of how long it takes to complete college? In reality, large numbers of students are not finishing in four years. Longer periods needed to graduate likely expand the cost of attendance. Thus, my question-should 4-year graduation rates be broadly disclosed? </p>
<p>USNWR provides a Top 100 list, combining all types of colleges. All of the Top 20 LACs made the list. The only public universities on the Top 100 list are U Virginia, W&M, and the Naval Academy and West Point. However, some of the more prominent national universities that fail to make this list include UC Berkeley, Carnegie Mellon, U Michigan, UCLA, USC, U North Carolina, Lehigh, NYU, U Rochester, and U Wisconsin. Of these ten schools, 5 are state public universities. </p>
<p>Below are some of the most commonly referenced schools on CC and what percentage of their students actually graduate in four years. </p>
<p>NATIONAL UNIVERSITIES</p>
<p>Columbia 92%
Princeton 90%
Yale 90%
BC 88%
Georgetown 88%
Notre Dame 88%
Duke 87%
Harvard 87%
U Penn 87%
Northwestern 85%
U Chicago 85%
Brandeis 84%
Cornell 84%
Dartmouth 84%
Emory 84%
Tufts 84%
U Virginia 84%
Brown 83%
Caltech 83%
Vanderbilt 83%
MIT 82%
Wash U 82%
W&M 81%
J Hopkins 81%
W Forest 78%
Rice 76%
Stanford 76%</p>
<p>Out of curiosity, do the above numbers represent the percent of students who graduate after four years of schooling, or the percent who graduate within four years of matriculation? In other words, if a student takes a semester/year off of school (so graduates in 4 1/2-5 years, but still after only 8 semesters of coursework), is (s)he included as a 4-year grad, or no? </p>
<p>Similarly, do the numbers represent the percentage of 4-year grads among all matriculated students, or of all grads? In other words, if 100 students matriculate, 10 transfer or drop out somewhere within the span of 4 years, and the other 90 graduate on time, is the school listed as having a 90% or a 100% graduation rate?</p>
<p>The reason I ask is because the above numbers definitely don't seem to tell the whole story, though they are interesting. I go to a school listed above at 81%, but I don't know a single person (let alone any 19%) who has wanted to graduate in 4 years and, unique circumstances (i.e. time off) aside, not been able to. I know a fair number who have taken longer than 4 years from the time of matriculation, but it certainly hasn't been due to inability to register, academic failure, etc., and it hasn't required extra semesters of tuition. There's just so much at play, here. It'd be so convenient if colleges could quantify "Students who try to graduate in four years" vs. "Students who actually do" (and maybe a little ranking for "How easy it was") :)</p>
<p>(To the OP: If you don't happen to know the answers to my questions, it's not a problem...I just wanted to point out that the numbers above may be misleading to prospective students who definitely want to graduate in 4 years.)</p>
<p>also, does it take into consideration students who are in 5 year plans, for example, you listed Dartmouth as having a 84% graduation rate. For students who are in the engineering program, it is a 5 year program so these students would not be graduating in 4 years (they would get an AB the 4th year and complete the engineering degree the 5th year). This is also the case at a few other schools on your list.</p>
<p>For the most part graduation rates are calculated on 6 years not 4 because students change/transfer schools for a variety of reasons, as studnet615 stated students also disrupt their education for a variety or reasons, mostly financial, but alos often family situations at home.</p>
<p>I am looking at the numbers of the US news list (have a paid subscription) and your numbers seem to be off.</p>
<p>for 2005 they list the projected and actual graduation rates as follows:</p>
<p>Harvard University (MA)<br>
94% 98%
Princeton University (NJ)<br>
94% 97%
Yale University (CT)<br>
95% 96%
Brown University (RI)<br>
93% 95%
University of Notre Dame (IN)<br>
90% 95%
Dartmouth College (NH)<br>
93% 93%
Stanford University (CA)<br>
93% 94%
Massachusetts Inst. of Technology<br>
95% 94%
University of Pennsylvania<br>
94% 94%
Duke University (NC)<br>
93% 93%
Columbia University (NY)<br>
93% 94%
Northwestern University (IL)<br>
91% 93%
Georgetown University (DC)<br>
90% 93%
University of Virginia *<br>
86% 93%
Cornell University (NY)<br>
90% 92%
Rice University (TX)<br>
93% 90%
Washington University in St. Louis<br>
90% 91%
College of William and Mary (VA) *<br>
84% 91%
Tufts University (MA)<br>
87% 90%
California Institute of Technology<br>
96% 90%
University of Chicago<br>
91% 91%
Johns Hopkins University (MD)<br>
89% 90%
Boston College<br>
83% 91%
Univ. of California—Los Angeles *<br>
88% 87%
Emory University (GA)<br>
93% 89%
University of California—Berkeley *<br>
90% 87%
Wake Forest University (NC)<br>
85% 88%
University of Michigan—Ann Arbor *<br>
77% 86%
Brandeis University (MA)<br>
86% 88%</p>
<p>Lehigh University (PA) </p>
<pre><code>80% 85%
</code></pre>
<p>Carnegie Mellon University (PA)<br>
88% 86%
U. of North Carolina—Chapel Hill *<br>
79% 84%</p>
<p>Pennsylvania State U.—University Park * 69% 84%
Univ. of Southern California<br>
85% 83%
University of Rochester (NY)<br>
83% 80%
U. of Illinois—Urbana - Champaign *<br>
74% 83%
New York University<br>
85% 83%
Rensselaer Polytechnic Inst. (NY)<br>
81% 81%
University of California—Irvine *<br>
79% 80%
Yeshiva University (NY)<br>
75% 82%
Miami University—Oxford (OH) *<br>
67% 80%
University of California—Davis *<br>
80% 80%
University of Florida *<br>
78% 79%
Syracuse University (NY)<br>
73% 79%
SUNY—Binghamton *<br>
73% 79%
Case Western Reserve Univ. (OH)<br>
86% 77%
Univ. of Wisconsin—Madison *<br>
77% 78%
Pepperdine University (CA)<br>
78% 80%
Worcester Polytechnic Inst. (MA)<br>
78% 73%
Fordham University (NY)<br>
67% 78%
Marquette University (WI)<br>
71% 80%
Univ. of California—Santa Barbara *<br>
81% 79%
Boston University<br>
81% 77%
Texas A&M Univ.—College Station *<br>
70% 77%
University of Delaware *<br>
62% 76%
University of Dayton (OH)<br>
65% 79%
University of Washington *<br>
66% 74%
University of Texas—Austin *<br>
72% 75%
Univ. of Maryland—College Park *<br>
74% 76%
University of Georgia *<br>
74% 74%
Brigham Young Univ.—Provo (UT)</p>
<p>When you combine Universities with LACs from the USNWR 2005 6-year graduation rate data, 6 of the top 15 including 3 of the top 6 spots are taken by LACs. (Ranked by actual graduation rate)</p>
<p>You can also get the rates or the number of students from a cohort who graduate in 4 4 or 6 years in section B- (enrollment & persistence) of a school's common data set. since this information is usually posted somewhere between pages 3 and 5 of the common data set, it is right out there for anyone to see.</p>
<p>Graduation rates don't really mean anything. You can't compare Caltech's curriculum with another school's and then look at graduation rates. Of course tech schools will have lower rates.</p>
<p>As I understand the OP, however, the question isn't about the percentage who graduate, but is about the percentage of graduates who are able to make it through in four years of schooling. Difficulty or exact nature of curriculum shouldn't have anything to do with it, provided that the schools/departments advertise themselves as 4-year programs in the first place.</p>
<p>student615, sybbie719 et al,
You raise many good questions and I think that I know the answers, but I am not sure as I don't see the methodology information for these numbers. I am working from the USNWR online edition "Top 100" list for the highest rate of students who graduate in four years. The numbers above are directly from the online USNWR.</p>
<p>You could cross compare the graduation list with the wealth of the matriculating Frosh, or, lacking data, Pell Grantees for a proxy, and methinks you'd find a high correlation between four-year graduation rate and wealth.</p>
<p>Thus, your central thesis is correct only for middle and upper middle income families:</p>
<p>
[quote]
many families are straining to put aside enough money....
[/quote]
</p>
<p>By definition, Pell Grantees do not have money to be able to "put aside." These kids have to work, often long hours, to attend college. State colleges typically don't offer full rides to poor kids, unlike several well-endowed colleges at the top of your list. </p>
<p>According to the LA Times, Cal Berkeley has more Pell Grantees on campus than all of the Ivies, combined. Comparing its four-year grad rate to H or P is apples and oranges. Make an adjustment for income, and the publics will move up. </p>
<p>Note, until recently, UVa had a lower % of Pell Grantees than some of the Ivies, so its place on the 4-year list supports the income inequality point. Further, Southern Cal has the highest % of Pell Grantees of major private Unis-- more than 2-3 times than the well endowed eastern colleges.</p>
<p>bluebayou,
It's an interesting thesis. I don't follow the Pell Grantee scene like others here. If anyone is inclined to do the analysis, it might be interesting reading. As for UC Berkeley's # of Pell Grantees, remember also that the enrollment of the Ivies COMBINED is only about 2.2x that of UCB and I don't know how many Pell Grantees there are in all of the Ivy schools. I don't know UCB's 4-year grad rate, but the combined Ivy number looks to be about 85-86%. Thus, it would appear that roughly 15% don't make it in four years. It would be interesting to see if UCB's rate is approx 2.2x that (33% or 67% graduate).</p>
<p>The fact that Lehigh and Carnegie fail to make the list should be a huge tip-off as to one of the factors involved here. Engineering programs tend to require more than 4 years of study.</p>
<p>Student615 also has a point--some students may take a little more time to get through public universities because they can afford to. They can take some lighter semesters, try a low-credit internship, etc. Another term or two of school is not an unappealing option, particularly in an iffy job market. This is less true of the more expensive public universities, but not an unheard-of phenomenon at those places. An enrollment projection person I used to work with, who'd tracked these things for years, built this right into his model--when the economy was bad, he figured on more seniors sticking around.</p>
<p>My concern about 4-year graduation rates would focus in more on those students who wanted to graduate in four years, and who were in a four-year program, but weren't able to get out in four years. How many of them are there? Why was that? Did they have to work a lot of hours due to insufficient aid? Could they not get into needed classes?</p>
<p>Good article on grad rates at UNC system in Raleigh paper. Basic premise is to raise grad rates they will increase high school gpa min to help ensure students have proven they can do the work expected.</p>
<p>Another issue at UNC is that b/c of large size, not all students can get classes they need to graduate in four years. Especially, if they change majors.</p>
<p>I think this is another plus for going to LAC-type school. Also even if large state U is cheaper on cost, if you have to pay for 5/6 years vs 4 at smaller , more expensive LAC you could come out ahead in the end.</p>
<p>Many kids at state schools don't have mom and dad paying the tab. They work part-time and take a lighter load in order to have time for work. Not fair to penalize them or the school.</p>
<p>Page 40 USNWR best college issue 2007.
Bluebayou's analysis is correct.</p>
<p>You can't expect students that barely have enough to survive to graduate in 4 years. College is not a race to complete. </p>
<p>I don't know of any top 50 school where you can't graduate in 4 years if you have the financial means, take a 4 year program, and want to graduate in 4 years.</p>
<p>If anyone knows of one, I'd like to know which school it is.</p>
<p>This isn't an issue.</p>
<p>Interesting pell grant numbers on W&L and Davidson.</p>
<p>Saying that students at one school can't, all efforts and interest in place, graduate in four years would be pretty harsh, but saying that certain schools make it more simple/difficult than others is fair. </p>
<p>I have a number of friends at large publics (Berkeley and Irvine, to name two) who won't make it out in 4 years...registration trouble, lack of advising (and thus trouble fulfilling GEs), impacted majors, and so forth. If you're interested in a minor or a double major, it can mean even more hassle. And if you change your mind late in the game (re: major), then there can also be problems since lower division pre-reqs are sometimes closed to upper-classmen. Of course these students could have been more on top of things, less indecisive, more pro-active, etc. and graduated in 4 years. But given their circumstances, this didn't end up being an option. The same students in the same situation at different schools might not have had any trouble at all (similarly, the majority of students at these "troublesome" schools are just fine...I know a few who've graduated early, as well). I know people at my small LAC who have changed their majors partway through junior year and still gotten out in 4 years (with minors, no less). Certainly, this is all just anecdotal...I know that any of the above scenarios are possible anywhere. I am NOT saying that a student who goes to a big public and aims to get out in 4 years will inevitably have trouble, nor that a student at a smaller school can change her mind every three minutes and not have problems...not even close to it. But personally, I think anecdote is more helpful here than numbers, which just leave out too much important info. </p>
<p>When I toured colleges, my parents made a point of stopping current students to ask a few questions, one of which was "How difficult is it to graduate in 4 years?" These casual encounters provided more valuable info than any statistic (granted, visitation is a privilege). Some schools also made a point of telling prospective students "You will graduate in 4 years, if you want to (and by the way, we want you to want to).</p>
<p>So my personal feeling is that the information IS important, but I don't think the stats alone should be taken at face value.</p>
<p>There are schools where it is easier to double major than others. Berkeley does have some impacted majors and students should be aware of this. As far as advising goes, where is the student responsibility? You're at school for many years. You can't take a few minutes to go online and see what the requirements to graduate are. You can't make an appointment with an advisor? I went to Berkeley and the advising was not great when I was there. It appears it isn't great today. But come on, it's not that hard to look things up. </p>
<p>
[quote]
But come on, it's not that hard to look things up.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You're absolutely right, and yet it would stagger you to know how many students don't look things up, and apparently get caught up in scheduling and requirement snafus. Which may have been, as you noted, entirely preventable.</p>
<p>But to some extent, I think it bears mention that online guides can't take the place of advising. They'll tell you the rules but not how to sanely negotiate them. Advising is where they can tell you that this course will substitute for that one if you submit the right paperwork, or that they don't recommend taking these two courses the same term, this course tends to fill up so take it now.... Students need this kind of advising, but not all of them get it.</p>
<p>Maybe I'm just overly sympathetic because I ended up forking over an extra $4600 in graduate tuition merely because I wrote a date down wrong. Yeah, it was online; findable in less than two minutes, even.</p>
<p>"Out of curiosity, do the above numbers represent the percent of students who graduate after four years of schooling, or the percent who graduate within four years of matriculation? In other words, if a student takes a semester/year off of school (so graduates in 4 1/2-5 years, but still after only 8 semesters of coursework), is (s)he included as a 4-year grad, or no?"</p>
<p>I was wondering this, too. It seems that many students at my college have taken a semester or year off from their studies, and I was wondering if this impacts the 4 year graduation rate.</p>
<p>On another thread, collegehelp made the following comments,</p>
<p>"In calculating graduation rates for US News and most other sources, students in 4-year programs are allowed 6 years to graduate and students in 5-year programs (e.g. engineering) are allowed 7.5 years to graduate."</p>
<p>and </p>
<p>"In the US Department of Education IPEDS Graduation Rate Survey, the benchmark for all graduation rate reporting, there is a supplement for 5-year programs' graduation rate after 7.5 years. I think it is a federal law. And, associates programs are only allowed 3 years to graduate."</p>
<p>I thought that this information might be helpful and could provide some statistical comfort who felt that some students/schools would be disadvantaged by a 4-year graduation rate as part of a ranking survey. </p>
<p>I don't know the answer to unregistered's questions above. Anybody??</p>