My D20 does not want to take math or science her senior year, but she has been getting some blowback from her peers that this is a bad idea if she wants to get into a selective college. (Calm down, peers!) I have also seen a number of CC posts that suggest 4 yrs. of math is a must for selective colleges, though I don’t know if this is based on rumor or actual discussions with admissions staff. I have been fully supportive of my D’s plan so far, because her interests do not lie in that area (it is too early to identify her potential college major, but she is definitely a humanities/social sciences person) and she would much rather fill those slots with courses she is interested in. Taking math and/or science senior year would undoubtedly lower her GPA since those are not her strengths. Some further context: she will have 2 to 3 AP classes completed by the end of her junior year with 4 to 5 additional APs in progress at the time she starts submitting apps in the fall of senior year. Too early for GPA predictions or SAT scores, but based on our conversations and past performance my best guess is her reaches will be places like USC, UCLA, and Michigan (definitely not HYPS), with matches places like Wisconsin, Miami U., American, or UW, with safeties TBD. Thoughts?
My non-STEM kid took AP Stats senior year (did not take calculus). She got into UWisconsin. I do think some kind of science is a good idea (my D took honors Physics). But even something like anatomy or environmental science (if offered) would be ok.
Just check the schools websites to see what they recommend. For example, UCLA recommends 4 years of math and 3 of science.
A. What math will she complete by the end of 11th grade? It is best to complete precalculus, though the most selective colleges may prefer to see a student take calculus if precalculus is completed before 12th grade.
B. What sciences will she complete by the end of 11th grade? Having one year each of biology, chemistry, and physics is more favorable than missing one of these three.
C. Is she more likely to be interested in humanities or social studies? Social studies majors may require a statistics or quantitative data analysis course, so a stronger math background is helpful. Economics will require calculus and statistics. Graduate study may require a stronger math and statistics background. Humanities generally has no math requirement beyond the college’s base requirement, but philosophy will require logical thinking, which math practices.
D. Which school does “UW” refer to (Washington or Wyoming, since you mentioned Wisconsin separately)? Washington has a 12th grade requirement of a math, statistics, AP computer science, physics, or chemistry course:
https://admit.washington.edu/apply/freshman/policies/cadr#math-based-quantitative .
Most high schools require 4 years of math to graduate. I cannot believe any HS would allow a student to skip a year of math. Bad idea. I agree that AP Bio, AP Physics and AP Chem can be grueling. Ask around and find the best teacher (and most lenient grader) to take for science. If an AP science is not going to happen for your kid, then consider honors science instead. At the same time, try to get the best teacher. Love of science and math for many kids are about connecting with a good teacher. The schools you list will prefer 4 years of science and math. Also, this is probably your last opportunity before sending your kid off to college to teach her how to use all available resources to learn. For math classes there are lots of excellent online resources like Kahn Academy (which is free). Her math teacher might provide before or after school help sessions one or two times a week and peer tutoring might be available at the high school. Guide her into how to address her academic weaknesses while she is still at home. That could be most important skill she learns before college. Oh, and you can always hire a tutor to help her at home.
Math, science, logic and statistics are basic skills for university research, even for people in the humanities.
While our school system only requires 3 years of math to meet the graduation requirement, we program all students for 4 years of math. As @TooOld4School said, math is a basic skill that is necessary. It is not pedagogically sound for students to sit out math for a year, then have to sit for math placement tests in college (based on AP/SATII/IB scores)
There are plenty of math courses for senior year that are NOT calculus or the like. One of my kids took statistics and economics (both math department at his HS). The colleges he applied to strongly recommended four years of math.
This same kid did NOT take science his senior year. But he had completed what his colleges required by the end of 11th grade.
My kid (in 2003) was a music performance major. No math courses were required for him in college. He did not have to take a math placement test…in college…at all.
You need to look at what YOUR kid’s potential colleges will require. At this point…many either require or strongly recommend four years of math, and science.
But DD, the STEM major DID have to take a math placement test.
Our school district requires you to have English, Social studies, math and science every year in high school.
You are required to have earth science, biology, chemistry and physics. You have to have Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2 and Trigonometry. Two years at least of foreign language. And some kind of art/music classes, PE/Health. financial literacy and a stats class.
All students also have to score proficient on the English, Algebra ! and Biology Keystone exams to graduate.
My D (college freshman) had a similar issue. Our state curriculum requires bio, chem, and physics (not required by our district for graduation) . She did not want to take physics and precalc at the same time. She is good (not great) at math, but dislikes it. Her solution was to take precalc junior year and physics senior year. She was also in several APs junior/senior year including foreign language, heavily involved in theater and visual arts. She skipped calculus and dropped orchestra senior year to fit everything in. She will have to take stats for her major in college. (She received a full-tuition academic merit scholarship–not having calculus or 4th year of science didn’t hurt.)
Thanks for all the advice above. Our school does not require a fourth year of math or science. By the end of junior year she will have taken Biology, Chemistry, Physics, or AP Bio (still deciding on junior year course) for science and Geometry, Algebra II, and Precalc/Trig for math. I realize that all of the colleges I listed recommend 4 years of math, but I was trying to get a sense for how big a deal it is not to take calculus given that it is a recommendation, not a requirement. Also trying to get a sense if there are admissions officers out there who actually think “Gee, she took AP European History instead of Honors Calculus her senior year, she’s going to be ill prepared for our institution”, which seems ridiculous, especially given that most colleges’ core requirements allow kids to avoid calculus in college (no calculus in college, no math placement test, right?) We are also considering having her take Statistics senior year, and she will be taking AP Macroeconomics.
If your D will have taken Biology, Chemistry and Physics, I don’t think it is essential to take a 4th year of science unless she is trying for the tippy top colleges. She might consider a class like AP Environmental Science in senior year though. However, I do think taking math for all four years is important for admissions to the majority of selective colleges. I don’t think it matters that your daughter is not going into a STEM field. High school preparation for college is meant to get an education, not specialize. So, she should have some math in senior year no matter what potential college major she might want to do in the future. I have a daughter who aimed for and attended a BFA degree program in musical theater (which is a specialized degree and one commits to the major prior to applying) and she took AP Calculus in 11th grade. It didn’t matter that she wasn’t pursuing anything STEM related, nor did her selective university require math classes in college. She showed a rigorous HS curriculum in all subject areas, which is important when applying to very selective colleges no matter what the intended major may be.
You can take stats instead of calculus for the fourth year of math.
I guess we will have to reassess after she has a list of target colleges. I got into an elite college with no senior year math and no science after sophomore year, but that was a very long time ago . . .
The four year math requirement will include Algebra taken in middle school. Therefore those four years can be done in three HS years as it appears your D will have done. Statistics does not always count towards a math requirement.
I looked at UW’s (WI) admissions requirements- 3-4 years of science. I was a chemistry major who dislikes physics, let her choose her course (I was lucky in the pre AP days we had integrated science- no solid year of any one field). Remember that four years of a single foreign language may meet college graduation requirements.
UW has placement tests for English and math as do other schools. Not needing to take any math in a college may be dependent on scoring well enough on the test (ie reviewing materials a school states will be covered just before taking it, calculus class will not prepare one for it). Language placement tests are generally only if one continues in the language in college. Unless more planned in college I would go through 4th year of a language in HS to cover my bases for a BA or a BS (at UW the choice depends on the student and meeting different breadth requirements for most majors, not major specific).
btw- Michigan is more popular (more competition) but Wisconsin has advantages and is an academic peer to Michigan.
Her junior year will be the last year grades will be seen for her college applications. Be sure she is aware of this and does her best. Senior year classes will still be in session when she completes applications and first semester grades submitted. Her senior year grades therefore are not as influential and I would not worry about a gpa that won’t be available for admissions.
Sounds like you are a good mom. Look at the freshman admissions requirements/for colleges of interest. Also look at what they say about classes competitive students will have taken. There may be minimums but most will have more than that. Have your D prepare to meet criteria but to also to explore subjects she is interested in. Kudos to not caring about student pressure as well.
This sounds like my D18. She didn’t want to take math this year. Her GC told her she “had to.” She chose Stats and Discrete Math over Calculus and is doing very well in it. She isn’t taking a science. However, she took Physics, Bio and Chemistry over the first three years and she took an EMT class at the community college over the summer. I signed off on those choices.
Thanks, wis75–though note that I am a dad, not a mom. When you say “the four year math requirement will include algebra taken in middle school”, are you referring to specific colleges? That’s not the impression I get from most college websites.
My kids are applying to selective colleges and neither is taking math this year, although one is in AP Econ, which is mathy. They did both have calculus in junior year, and both are taking science classes this year, not for pleasure but because they think they ought to. Neither wants a STEM major in college. I think seniors should have some latitude to take classes they especially enjoy and care about. Having said that, both my kids know they will need to take statistics in college.
She should have Bio, Physics and Chem. Math through pre-calc. Like others I think if she doesn’t want to take calculus as a senior, it would be better to take statistics than to take nothing.
You can check websites (or send an email to admissions now if the info is unclear)- UW-Madison’s specifically addresses this. It is logical as most students in any HS will start with algebra, it is the standard first HS math course. Taking it early does not change having the four HS courses.