<p>And here’s an article which mentions sometimes even HS honors students could end up in remediation despite doing well:</p>
<p><a href=“New Push Seeks to End Need for Remedial Classes Before College - The New York Times”>http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/28/education/28remedial.html</a></p>
<p>I don’t really think that 5 year old article about West Virginia applies to honors classes in NYC. And doing homework doesn’t get one straight A’s, particularly in those honors classes. Cobrat seriously, you are so far away from having been in school that you really don’t know what the current anything is. You might be surprised at how close in age you are to me, much closer than to kids in K-12 schools.</p>
<p>It seems to me that we’re conflating two different problems here. Failing schools are a massive problem, and there are certainly places that are not adequately preparing students for college level work.</p>
<p>The problem of whether or not a particular student is being well-positioned for the most selective high schools is another matter, and one that in many cases seems much more akin to the familiar topic of worrying about attending an elite college vs. a perfectly fine public flagship than to the much more profound issue of kids being stuck in absolutely dreadful school systems. Obviously, there are some kids who probably would be a lot better served in both the selective high school and the elite college, but I don’t think the fact that a kid who doesn’t test onto the highest math track in eight grade may not be equipped to get into Stuyvesant is worth a lot of societal hand-wringing.</p>
<p>Now, if I were the parent of a kid I thought had been misplaced, I might be somewhat concerned, but that still doesn’t amount to a huge systemic issue. </p>
<p>apprenticeprof, the huge systemic issue in NYC is that there are not enough decent to above-average high schools in NYC to educate the decent students of NYC. So a zillion kids apply to the same 30 (out of 400+) schools. It’s as if the listings showed the top 30, and then the bottom 370 with nothing in between.</p>
<p>oldmom, I respectfully disagree. I think those numbers are a bit misleading. There are more than a few schools that dont make that top 30 but have programs within them that are incredibly successful. My D went to one such, it is an inner-city school with all its gang problems and such. But it has two programs, including an IB that educates kids to the highest level. There are also several programs that do a less elite job, but send most of their graduates to respectable colleges. And then there are the rest . . .</p>
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<p>One reason why this is receiving handwringing is precisely because the increasing trend of prepping earlier for NYC public magnet HSs like Stuy highlight the deteriorating quality in the academic curriculum of many NYC K-8 schools, especially those in underserved areas and immigrant communities. </p>
<p>1-2 decades ago, if you had said students, especially those in underserved/immigrant communities with mediocre K-8 schools needed to enter a limited number of public G & T programs starting in early elementary school or start prep courses in 3rd grade, we’d be wondering what you’ve been smoking. While prep did exist back, it was only a few months to a year at the most and was meant more for familiarization with the format and pacing of the exam, not usually learning the actual content for the first time. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, that has become the reality for many such parents because of the elimination of SP homerooms in many neighborhood middle schools and the non G & T programs don’t expose students to content covered on the SHS exam like algebra and geometry until 8th grade when it’s too late as one takes the exam in the fall of 8th grade for 9th grade entry. </p>
<p>This issue also relates to why many well-off parents are in such a frenzy to pay 41k+ for pre-k. </p>
<p>Most would opt out of the NYC public school system if their kids cannot get into a G & T program, get into one of the public magnets, or don’t live in a good neighborhood where their kids get first priority for good local neighborhood schools. No such parent wants to take the chance their kids may end up being shut out of all their choices in the crazed regular HS lottery process and end up attending high schools of last choice such as Murray Bergtraum:</p>
<p><a href=“Murry Bergtraum High School Melee Caught on Video - Downtown - New York - DNAinfo”>http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20120303/downtown/murry-bergtraum-high-school-melee-caught-on-video</a></p>
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It is absolutely not a lottery process and the people who get shut out are people who applied badly either through ignorance or arrogance.</p>
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<p>Or possibly unfortunate to live in neighborhoods where despite having a good local high school, locals in the neighborhood don’t get first dibs so they could be shut out while some of the seats are taken by students from outside the neighborhood or sometimes, even borough. </p>
<p>Also, ignorance is understandable considering how byzantine the process can be even before this crazed process started. What about parents who are recent immigrants unfamiliar with the entire process or those who don’t have the knowledge/time to do so due to working one or more jobs to make ends meet? </p>
<p>zoosermom, I think this is not a good place to debate the ephemera of NYC high school choice. There is so much variation according to where the kid lives and where s/he went to middle school. Opportunities are not equal for completely arbitrary reasons.</p>
<p>We threaded the needle and were very lucky with each level of placement. But not everyone is so lucky to find a path of exceptions to the arcane, complicated, dysfunctional rules of how kids wind up in this school or that.</p>
<p>I also fail to see the relevance of post # 217 of a four year old article of a student who graduated from high school 6 years ago.</p>
<p>The young lady in the article graduated high school in 2008 with a local diploma . The graduation requirements then are not the same as they are now; you could graduate with a local diploma as long as you scored a 55 on each regents exam. </p>
<p>Ms Croslen would not have graduated high school under todays standards as the only students eligible to receive a local diploma are students with IEP as a safety-net option. </p>
<p>Unless Cobrat or one of his cousins/ friends/ people from the old country, went to school with Ms. Croslen, they have no way ok knowing the factors that led to Ms. Croslen’s success or lack there of. </p>
<p>Unless Cobrat was able to access her grades in high school in addition to her attendance, disciplinary records, he nor the reporter would be really able to talk about Ms. Croslen in context to her entire educational experience in high school. </p>
<p>Even if Ms. Croslen was less than a stellar student in high school, neither Cobrat or the reporter knows why. </p>
<p>Cobrat or the reporter also do not know what interventions if any were provided to this young woman. You know nothing about her home life or what kind of supports if any she was receiving at home. </p>
<p>Does Cobrat or the reporter know what kind of academic intervention services were offered to this young woman if she took advantage of them.</p>
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<p>We’re talking about elite universities and you posted an article about a community college student and the 20-30% of students at regional 4-years who have to take remedial course work? Nobody with a 30+ ACT score or 4s and 5s on AP exams takes remedial coursework. Your child doesn’t even need to be in advanced courses to get into an elite college. A regular math track of algebra I, geometry, algebra II, trig (and a ACT prep book) is all you need to get a perfect math score on the ACT and be in position to take college calculus.</p>
<p>I find parents get incredibly offended when you acknowledge that they heaven for bid made some mistakes in raising their child. I tutor inner-city elementary students in math and the problem isn’t the kids, it’s the parents’ effort (or lack there of) 99% of the time.</p>
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Outside of Staten Island, public transportation is plentiful and MetroCards are provided.</p>
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Opportunities are not equal, but it is absolutely not true that it’s either the SHS or remedial. That just has no basis in fact or reality. The reason the application process allows for 12 choices is so that if a kid follows the rules there will be a placement he or she can live with. Unfortunately, sometimes people don’t know better despite the meetings and mailings and such or they are so arrogant that it never crosses their minds that their snowflake wouldn’t be one of the chosen few. That was a pretty common situation in my son’s 8th grade year (2 years ago) because the parents truly had no perception of their kids’ place in the bigger picture. You know, that whole big fish/small pond thing. I don’t think there is a lack of opportunity, I think there are plenty of spots, particularly with the standardized curriculum because despite cobrat’s contentions, the same work is done at each grade level. The real problem is that the preparation through the earlier grades is lacking and most of that happens in the home. One of the reasons I’m so glad my son got into his school is because the public schools, even the specialized schools, have to adhere to a certain level of across the board inclusion, whereas private schools don’t. What that meant for my kid is that his music program requires students to own instruments and take private lessons, whereas public schools can’t leave anyone out who can’t afford those things, so the level of musicianship is lower. </p>
<p>@thumper1 “Re: post 216…it takes more than doing homework. But believe what you want to believe.”</p>
<p>There’s some character building too. But when I say homework, I don’t just mean rushing through it and trusting your kid’s A grades. I mean a parent sitting down with their kid each night from K-8th and going over their homework and watching out for grade inflation (i.e., an A isn’t reflective of complete understanding). How many parents do that? <1%. Mine did and I’ve been completely self reliant through high school.</p>
<p>At our house “self-reliant” means “Dad can’t do the level of math you’re taking so you’d better check your own work, kid.” </p>
<p>@SomeOldGuy My dad is an engineer and I wouldn’t expect him to understand everything about high school math he hasn’t seen in 20+ years. Luckily he set a strong foundation, so I never needed to call on him. And my mom was an english major and I’ve rarely asked her to edit my papers.</p>
<p>Honestly, high school is like 99% effort. If you raise a lazy kid, good luck.</p>
<p>You’ve asked your mom to edit your papers? School assignments?</p>
<p>“What about parents who are recent immigrants unfamiliar with the entire process or those who don’t have the knowledge/time to do so due to working one or more jobs to make ends meet?”</p>
<p>What about them? Life isn’t 100% fair, cobrat. Did your parents move to the US thinking that it always would be? </p>
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<p>Unless you’re comparing LaGuardia High School of Performing Arts with the private school, that’s an apples and durians comparison. </p>
<p>Most of the rest of the Specialized High Schools don’t provide much support for arts and music for institutional prioritization reasons. </p>
<p>Students who want more Arts & Music support, especially performing arts tend to apply to LaGuardia HS of Performing Arts or attend one of many public/private schools which specialize or are otherwise able to provide much more support in those areas. </p>
<p>My parents were not as informed with the college process when I was applying to schools, but I ended up at a decent school and did well in life. I was also not as informed when D1 was applying, but was a lot more savvy when it was D2’s turn. Come to think of it, I was probably not as experienced as a new parent with D1 than with D2, so D1 was disadvantaged relative to D2. D1 thinks D2 has a lot more material goods than her because we were financially better off when D2 was growing up. Life really just sucks when not everyone can be treated equally.</p>
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You do know that there are music programs in other high schools, right cobrat? </p>
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It’s exactly what I said. I preferred a school that could offer more options for my son up to his musical level. He was accepted to LaGuardia, as I said earlier, but chose not to attend for demographic reasons. THat was the exactly right decision for him.</p>