50 Best B-schools For Getting Hired 2007

<p>Nothing really surprising... ranked by Fortune magazine</p>

<p><a href="http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/mbaschools_hired/2007/full_list/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/mbaschools_hired/2007/full_list/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>1 Wharton
2 Harvard
3 MIT
4 Stanford
5 Northwestern
6 Columbia
7 Chicago
8 Duke
9 Dartmouth
10 NYU
11 UMich
12 UC Berkeley
12 Cornell
12 UVA
12 Yale</p>

<p>...etc.</p>

<p><a href="http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/mbaschools_hired/2007/full_list/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/mbaschools_hired/2007/full_list/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>How they picked:
How we pick the 50 Best:
To choose the 50 Best Business Schools for Getting Hired, Fortune and its partner QS analyze information from QS's TopMBA Scorecard, which includes data on 111 top accredited U.S. business schools. TopMBA Scorecard is an online tool designed to help students search MBA programs to find the best one for them. For this list, schools are ranked based equally on their reputation with recruiters and on their strength of career placement, based on a search by a student looking to study in a full-time MBA program in the United States.</p>

<p>To determine schools' recruiter ratings, QS surveyed 445 HR managers responsible for MBA hiring at their company. Recruiters are asked to name the international business schools from which they would prefer to hire MBAs, and which they consider to be the most reputable. The schools' scores are then converted into an index number of 0 to 100, where 100 is the top-scoring MBA program.</p>

<p>To determine schools' career placement strength, QS surveyed top MBA schools and asked them what percent of their students are employed within 3 months of graduation (accounting for 20% of their career-placement score), the average number of employment offers per student (another 20% of the career-placement score) and students' average salary on graduation (60% of the career-placement score).</p>

<p>QS is one of the foremost providers of independent information on higher education around the world and also runs the QS World MBA Tour. For more information, go to <a href="http://www.topmba.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.topmba.com&lt;/a> or e-mail <a href="mailto:topmba@qsnetwork.com">topmba@qsnetwork.com</a>.</p>

<p>Does it really matter if you're a graduate from a number 1 school compared to a number 5 school? I would think that most companies view graduates from top schools to be about equal.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Does it really matter if you're a graduate from a number 1 school compared to a number 5 school? I would think that most companies view graduates from top schools to be about equal.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, not really. Keep in mind that the vast vast majority of companies are 'regular' companies, staffed by people who don't know the rankings and don't care. If you're a new MBA and you want to get a job with one of these companies, your best bet is to go to the most famous B-school you can get into. In those cases, the difference between the #1 school and the #5 school is like night and day, simply because there are only a few business schools in the world that have a truly universally famous brand name - Harvard, MIT, Stanford, maybe Wharton (although even that's debateable) and that's about it. Let's face it. Most regular people have never heard of places Northwestern, UChicago, Dartmouth, or Duke (or they just think it's a basketball school). </p>

<p>One response might be that you wouldn't want to work for a regular company anyway. I don't know about that. A lot of regular companies, frankly, pay better and provide more opportunities than the supposed "top" companies do. That's because there are so many of these regular companies around that you are bound to find some that pay very well and offer very nice jobs. </p>

<p>I talk about this at length starting in post #18 of the following thread. </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=295385&page=2%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=295385&page=2&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"only a few business schools in the world that have a truly universally famous brand name - Harvard, MIT, Stanford, maybe Wharton (although even that's debateable)"</p>

<p>This is true Sakky, the difference between #1 and #5 is enormous. Although I'd pull the ole switch-a-roo with Wharton and MIT. It's called SHW for a reason, and it's because they clearly are the top 3 b-schools.</p>

<p>In Japan I talked with a couple bankers working for Nomura, and they all thought Wharton was #1. I think the general perception for business is Harvard/Stanford/Wharton>Columbia/MIT>UChicago/Kellogg>Dartmouth>Duke</p>

<p>
[quote]
it's a basketball school

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Psh. Like this is supposed to be an insult. :D</p>

<p>(Hey, as long as they're not calling us a lacrosse school, I'm happy.)</p>

<p>
[quote]
This is true Sakky, the difference between #1 and #5 is enormous. Although I'd pull the ole switch-a-roo with Wharton and MIT. It's called SHW for a reason, and it's because they clearly are the top 3 b-schools

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Trust me, I know a LOT of regular people who have never heard of Wharton or UPenn. Or if they have heard of UPenn, they just think it's a crappy state school. Let's face it. Regular people do not know much about schools. Ask them to name the schools in the Ivy League, and you'll be lucky if they name more than 3. Ask them if they've heard of Northwestern Kellogg, and you're likely to get a blank stare. The same, sadly, happens for Upenn and Wharton - regular people just don't know what it is. </p>

<p>At least people have heard of MIT, even though often times they have no idea that it even has a business school or that they think of MIT's geek stereotype. But hey, at least it doesn't get mistaken for some low-level state school. </p>

<p>Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that it's right. I think Wharton is a better business school than Sloan is. But the truth is, regular people don't know that much. And sadly, regular people often times are the ones in charge of hiring.</p>

<p><a href="http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/27/news/bschools_correction/index.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/27/news/bschools_correction/index.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Last week, CNNMoney.com published "Top 50 Business Schools for Getting Hired."</p>

<p>The data for the list was provided by an outside vendor, Quacquarelli Symonds Ltd. Upon our publication of the feature, we were alerted to potential flaws in the provided data and the data survey methodology.</p>

<p>These flaws in methodology may have resulted in University of North Carolina's Kenan-Flagler Business School and Boston University being omitted from the list.</p>

<p>CNNMoney.com regrets the error, and apologizes to its readers and the business schools involved. The list has been removed from the site. Top of page</p>

<p>I am surprised Florida isn't on the list. If you live/wor in Florida, it is by a good margin the best overall school in the state.</p>

<p>are you kidding me? if a company's HR doesn't know UPenn or Wharton, then that company is not worth to go. any big company would know IVY league schools.</p>

<p>
[quote]
are you kidding me? if a company's HR doesn't know UPenn or Wharton, then that company is not worth to go. any big company would know IVY league schools.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I am not kidding you. </p>

<p>First off, when did I say anything about 'big' companies? The vast majority of companies out there are relatively small companies. Nor are these necessarily bad companies to work for. Obviously some are bad companies. But some of them are very good to work for.</p>

<p>Secondly, when did I say anything about HR? Again, plenty of companies out there are too small to have a formal HR department. And even if a company does, HR rarely (if ever) has final hiring power in a company. If a company CEO says that he really wants to hire somebody, HR is not going to stop it from happening. </p>

<p>I'll give you a prototypical example. Take a startup small business. All startups basically begin life as a small group of people - generally 5 people or less. There is no HR. It's just a small group of guys with an idea and a dream. In most cases, these guys are just 'regular' guys with little knowledge about school rankings. They know their product, they know their market, and that's what they know. If you want to get into such a company, you basically have to rely on getting your foot in the door via a general brand name. </p>

<p>I'll give you an example from my hometown. I know a guy who is now a restaurant entrepreneur and businessmen - he owns something like 5 or 6 (maybe more now) high-class restaurants around town. He makes a lot of money, and so do his restaurant managers. But when he started out years ago, he was just a single guy running a single struggling, low-scale restaurant. It was his hard work and his business savvy that allowed him to grow the business to what it is. He probably now employs over 150 people. </p>

<p>But does he have an HR staff? No - all hiring decisions still go through him, in consultation with his restaurant managers. And I can GUARANTEE YOU he has never heard of UPenn or Wharton. After all, why would he? He's just a simple regular restauranteer. What he spends all his time on are things having to do with managing his business. He doesn't have a lot of education himself, so he doesn't know the school rankings. </p>

<p>Nor is it a bad job to work for him. For example, each of his individual restaurant managers has the opportunity to make a huge amount of money. I believe some of them are making over 250k a year, and one of them is making much more than that. It all depends on how well you run that individual restaurant. If you manage it well, you do well. Hence, some of those restaurant managers are making much more money than many Wharton MBA's are, especially the ones who took regular corporate jobs (i.e. not Ibanking). Granted, working as a restaurant manager is not for everybody. But if you do it well, you can make very good money. I think it's a very good job for somebody who can take a fast-paced operational environment because of the high upside. In contrast, if you take a regular corporate job, you don't get much upside to doing an excellent job. </p>

<p>But the point is, MOST companies out there are like that one - run by regular people who don't know about the rankings and don't care. You seem to be far too fixated on the large corporations to appreciate the dynamism of the American economy. Most American companies are small businesses. Granted, many of them are not good working opportunities. But there are so many of them to begin with that many of them ARE excellent working opportunities.</p>

<p>I think you are wrong Sakky. People in the know, know about Wharton. Whether they are large or small, the companies that people at a school like Wharton want to work for are not run by "regular people", rather they will likely be run by those who are very familiar with Wharton. </p>

<p>If you really want to get into what "regular people" think, I doubt the average person would even know that MIT has a b-school, much less know that it's called Sloan...the average person would think MIT is an engineering school. </p>

<p>Stanford, Harvard, and Wharton are the top 3 b-schools, and I would argue the most well known among those those opinions really matter when securing a job.</p>

<p>Sakky,</p>

<p>Regular companies in LA hire MBAs from schools like Peppderdine!!! While these regular companies would be "wow" by Harvard/Stanford grads, the reality is there are really just not enough HS to fill those positions! LOL! You made it sound like people need to be weary about picking Wharton/Kellogg over Harvard because of "regular" companies.</p>

<p>... Sam, you've just established the importance of local connections. You've hardly proved that people in LA know anything about Wharton.</p>

<p>bluedevilmike,</p>

<p>I could have easily used Wichita State. In fact, one of my friends with a finance degree from Wichita State and few years of working experience (for a regular company) got multiple job offers from "regular companies" as "Senior Accountant" or "Financial Manager" within a month of moving to LA! He's not even a CPA. Regular companies aren't gonna sit around and make offers only when someone with a Harvard/Stanford MBA comes along. After all, "regular" employers are bosses without degrees from prestigious universities; they are living proof of people who succeed without shiny diploma. They are not gonna turn around and say, "where? never heard of it...next!". While they may be mistakenly "wow" more by Yale MBA than Wharton MBA, they are probably also the ones that care the least about where your MBA is from.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I think you are wrong Sakky. People in the know, know about Wharton. Whether they are large or small, the companies that people at a school like Wharton want to work for are not run by "regular people", rather they will likely be run by those who are very familiar with Wharton.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>First off, I'm really not sure that the companies Wharton grads want to work for know about Wharton grads. Like I said, there are a LOT of regular companies out there that, frankly, offer better jobs than the standard large corporate jobs that many Wharton grads end up at. </p>

<p>Keep in mind that not every Whartonite goes off to finance or consulting. A significant number of them take operations management jobs (Wharton does have a highly rated operations management group). Yet the fact is, operations management at the large companies just doesn't pay all that great. You take an operations job at Dell, Amazon, GE, and the like, and frankly, you're not really getting paid that well. For example, in 2006, Amazon was offering only about $100k of salary for top MBA's, which is really not that much. Granted, there was also signing bonuses and year-end bonuses, hence pushing the total pay package to perhaps $120-130. But still, frankly, that's not that much for a top MBA. </p>

<p>In contrast, there are a LOT of regular companies who offer better than this. In fact, a bunch of guys that I know, who had just come from working at these regular companies and then got their MBA's, were remarking that if they took those ops management jobs at those large companies, they would actually be making LESS than they were making before they got their MBA. Hence, they would be far better off by just going back to working for their regular company employer. In fact, some of them did exactly that - and are making far more than new MBA's at Amazon or Dell. </p>

<p>
[quote]
If you really want to get into what "regular people" think, I doubt the average person would even know that MIT has a b-school, much less know that it's called Sloan...the average person would think MIT is an engineering school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>True, they won't even know that MIT has a business school. But at least they will have HEARD of MIT.</p>

<p>This reminds of the scene in the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie, where Jack Sparrow is initially caught by the British troops. The British captain looks at Sparrow's tattoo, recognizes who is he is, looks at his shoddy equipment, and says: " You are without doubt the worst pirate I've ever heard of". Sparrow coolly replies "But you have heard of me". </p>

<p>See, THAT's the advantage that MIT has with regular people. I agree that most regular people don't even know that MIT has a business school. But at least they have heard of MIT. In the case of Upenn and Wharton, the fact is, most regular people have never heard of either. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Regular companies in LA hire MBAs from schools like Peppderdine!!!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes, what's your point? All schools hire regionally. </p>

<p>
[quote]
While these regular companies would be "wow" by Harvard/Stanford grads, the reality is there are really just not enough HS to fill those positions! LOL! You made it sound like people need to be weary about picking Wharton/Kellogg over Harvard because of "regular" companies.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Again, frankly, yeah. There are a LOT of regular companies out there, some of them offering quite good jobs. </p>

<p>The REAL issue is that, frankly, a lot of MBA jobs available at large, famous companies are just not very good. Like I said above, they don't pay all that well, the opportunities are really not that exciting, the chances for advancement are not that good, and so forth. For example, I know some MBA's at Dell who started out 6 months ago, and they hate it. They're bored stiff. Not only that, but they're not getting paid that well, and their stock options are in the toilet. Nobody wants to listen to their ideas because right now, everybody at Dell is just trying to avoid getting laid off, so nobody wants to take any risks. Similarly, I know some recently graduated MBA's at Ford and GM who absolutely hate it - which is unsurprising considering the turmoil that the US auto industry is going through. </p>

<p>Even if we want to talk about the 'premier' MBA-type jobs, again, a lot of them really aren't that great. For example, I can immediately think of one Harvard MBA who got offers from the major consulting firms Bain and Booz Allen. But frankly, those consulting firms don't pay that well, relative to the long hours they want you to work. In fact, he said that he was making almost as much before coming to HBS, just working as a Silicon Valley engineer. So what did he do? Simple - he found a small no-name regular company who is paying him SUBSTANTIALLY more than Bain or Booz Allen would, has put him in a position or major leadership and power, and he doesn't have to work as hard as he would have if he had become a consultant. </p>

<p>Hence, what I am getting at is that a lot of these MBA jobs at these famous, prestigious companies are, frankly, not that good. You can often times do better in just working for a regular company. The issue that I see is that a lot of MBA students get caught up in the wave. People start talking about how 'prestigious' it is to work for a big company like Dell or Ford or General Electric is, so they decide to take jobs there, not realizing that, frankly, the job actually doesn't pay that well. </p>

<p>I'll put it to you this way. I myself used to work for a no-name, regular company. The project managers there had no MBA's, but instead had just undergrad degrees from no-name schools, and in subjects like the humanities. And the term 'project manager' was something of a misnomer, because what they really were were just liaisons between the company and the clients. These people only had about 5-8 years of total working experience (the oldest one was about 30). And they were working, barely, 40 hours a week. Yet they were all making 85-100k a year. The VP of Engineering, who himself didn't even have an engineering degree, and only had about 10 years of experience (he was in his early 30's), was making over 175k a year. Granted, this was in San Francisco, where the pay scales are quite high. But still - these people had no prestigious or marketable degree, no MBA, no great work experience, yet they were making quite good pay - quite close to what a new MBA consultant at one of the major consulting firms would make. If this regular company was willing to pay up to 100k for people with quite modest credentials, imagine what somebody with a famous MBA could get from a company like that. When I say 'famous', I mean in the sense that they have an MBA from a school with a world-class name, like a Harvard or Stanford. </p>

<p>The point is, I see a LOT of failure of imagination among a lot of new MBA's, especially the ones from the most famous schools. A lot of them just don't seem to understand just how powerful their school name brand really is, and don't seem to understand that there are a lot of regular companies out there who really will pay very very well for jobs that are not that hard to do. Or, put another way, there are a good number of people out there working at regular companies and who have only mediocre education/credentials and mediocre experience who are nonetheless making a lot of money anyway. Somebody with a a huge brand-name credential like a Harvard MBA should be able to get at least a job as good as that, merely on the strength of the brand name of the credential. But that brand name has to be known by regular people.</p>

<p>
[quote]
While they may be mistakenly "wow" more by Yale MBA than Wharton MBA, they are probably also the ones that care the least about where your MBA is from.

[/quote]

Point conceded. I look forward to reading the other responses.</p>

<p>sakky,</p>

<p>Regarding my reference to Pepperdine, I have already given my response to bluedevilmike. I don't know why you felt the need to go back and pretty much repeated what he just said. Are you like couple posts behind? </p>

<p>
[quote]
If this regular company was willing to pay up to 100k for people with quite modest credentials, imagine what somebody with a famous MBA could get from a company like that. When I say 'famous', I mean in the sense that they have an MBA from a school with a world-class name, like a Harvard or Stanford.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The key word is "imagine". It seems to me you are just making up a hypothetical situation; just because a firm is giving a guy with a modest credential 100K doesn't mean the same company is gonna offer something substantially different when a Harvard MBA comes along. My firm is the regular company you talk about. Actually, it's one of the largest engineering firms in the world but each local office works sorta like a "regular" small to mid-size firm as far as hiring and recruiting go. The management people with similar post make about the same money, regardless where they got their degrees from. My office manager graduated from Cal Poly-SLO, not UCLA/USC. Regular companies just aren't that hung up with brand-name and on the other hand, brand-name alone just doesn't convince them. The high- profile personnels hired from outside were doing very well in their previous companies. It's based on their experience and performance, not where their MBA is. In my firm, offices don't hire fresh MBAs from Harvard/Stanford to be VPs!</p>

<p>
[quote]
Or, put another way, there are a good number of people out there working at regular companies and who have only mediocre education/credentials and mediocre experience who are nonetheless making a lot of money anyway.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's what's happening precisely because regular companies don't really care much where your degree is from, as I have pointed out earlier.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I could have easily used Wichita State. In fact, one of my friends with a finance degree from Wichita State and few years of working experience (for a regular company) got multiple job offers from "regular companies" as "Senior Accountant" or "Financial Manager" within a month of moving to LA! He's not even a CPA. Regular companies aren't gonna sit around and make offers only when someone with a Harvard/Stanford MBA comes along. After all, "regular" employers are bosses without degrees from prestigious universities; they are living proof of people who succeed without shiny diploma. They are not gonna turn around and say, "where? never heard of it...next!". While they may be mistakenly "wow" more by Yale MBA than Wharton MBA, they are probably also the ones that care the least about where your MBA is from.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But, Sam Lee, your logic is flawed. You actually have the correct analysis, but the wrong conclusion. What an MBA from Harvard or Stanford (and to a lesser extent places like MIT or Yale) allows you to do is compete for BOTH the standard MBA-type jobs (because these are all top MBA programs) AND for the regular jobs. What some place like Wichita State or Pepperdine do is allow you to compete only for the regular jobs. What a place like Wharton does is allows you to compete for the MBA-type jobs, and obviously does it very well. But some schools allow you to compete for BOTH.</p>

<p>So the way I see it is, the real question is, what do you want. I agree that if you are only interested in the traditional MBA jobs, Wharton is an excellent school, arguably one of the top 3 schools. But do you also want the flexibility to pursue 'regular' companies. If the answer is no, then my discussion in this thread is not relevant to you, so you are free to ignore it. But if the answer is yes, or even 'maybe', then what I am saying is something you should consider.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Regarding my reference to Pepperdine, I have already given my response to bluedevilmike. I don't know why you felt the need to go back and pretty much repeated what he just said. Are you like couple posts behind?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Hardly. Because EVERY school, by definition, has regional benefits in whatever region that that school happens to be in. For example, Yale clearly has advantages if you want to get a job in Connecticut (don't laugh, it is the richest state in the country, as measured by per-capita GDP). On the other hand, some schools also have national brand-name advantages. Pepperdine has the same regional advantage in LA that Yale has in New England. But a Yale grad can also use his brand name to get a top job in LA. That's far less of an option for a Pepperdine grad to get a top job in Connecticut. </p>

<p>
[quote]
The key word is "imagine". It seems to me you are just making up a hypothetical situation; just because a firm is giving a guy with a modest credential 100K doesn't mean the same company is gonna offer something substantially different when a Harvard MBA comes along.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, they did EXACTLY THAT. But not with a Harvard MBA, but with a Stanford MBA. A Stanford MBA was invited into executive management of the company, with relatively little experience. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Regular companies just aren't that hung up with brand-name and on the other hand, brand-name alone just doesn't convince them. The high- profile personnels hired from outside were doing very well in their previous companies. It's based on their experience and performance, not where their MBA is. In my firm, offices don't hire fresh MBAs from Harvard/Stanford to be VPs!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>See above. </p>

<p>
[quote]
That's what's happening precisely because regular companies don't really care much where your degree is from, as I have pointed out earlier.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I agree that some of them may not care much. But when we're talking about getting your foot in the door, even a small advantage helps.</p>

<p>But some of them care a great deal. Let me give you another example. I know an MIT Sloan grad who was immediately hired into a quite nice management job at a regular company. Now, the company is actually starting a marketing campaign saying that their products are overseen by "MIT-educated" people, and is using that fact to attempt to win engineering business, especially in Asia. It's actually going to become part of their sales pitch - that their company staff is "MIT-educated". Never mind the fact that he is the only MIT graduate in the company, and he isn't even an engineer. His MIT degree is a Sloan MBA. That doesn't matter. For the purposes of marketing, what the company has determined is that they can market themselves better by utilizing the MIT brand name. </p>

<p>A similar story is, again, my old employer who hired a Stanford MBA into executive management. What was his primary task? Simple. To attempt to secure VC funding for the company. He became the front man whenever the company talked to investors. Why? It's not because he had experience in the area, because he had none He was the front man for one simple reason - the Stanford MBA brand name. It was reasoned that through him, the company would have more credibility with investors. Furthermore, many venture capitalists are Stanford MBA's themselves, so this guy could presumably leverage the alumni network to secure meetings with VC's. The company actually changed their whole investor pitch to emphasize their new Stanford connection. </p>

<p>But my point is simply this. A lot of people who graduate from name-brand schools often times don't realize the kind of branding power that they really have. There are in fact regular companies that really will be impressed enough with you to grant you an interview sheerly on the strength of your school's brand name. After that, it's up to you to interview them. But like I said, there are a LOT of regular people who are not highly qualified and who don't have strong credentials, but get paid very well anyway. Guys with the brand-name degrees ought to be able to get a job that is at least as good as what those people get. What I often times see is that these guys just don't know how good they really are (or, equivalently, how bad other people really are).</p>