<p>To repeat what dblazer said, in order to get into accelerated programs you have to be very well rounded. Most, if not all are athletes, Actors/actresses, singers etc.</p>
<p>“to each his own.”</p>
<p>“all roads lead to Rome.” — the point is that there are more than 1 path that will lead to the same destination.</p>
<p>We study the humanities to understand humans.
Yet in “accelerated” programs on day 1, students study and care for actual humans to understand humanity.</p>
<p>I do not see at all how any program accelerated or not, filled with kids from public state UG or filled with graduates from Ivy / Elite UG, top 20 Med. School or the lowest ranked, I just do not see how any differences in programs can make a diiference in a human side of the future MD. It is up to a person to develop ability to “reach out” to each patient so that trust could be developed which would insure the proper level of communication and support. It is a must in medicine on top of all academical knowledge that cannot be overlloked either. One will see a great variety of student at every Medical school (in combined program or not) who would posses various levels of this skill.<br>
I cannot see how any class, including any “humanities” study can do it for you. This should have been developed in a little kid since very young age. Those who have been exposed to a great variety of personalities and who specifically took care to surround themselves by very different people in UG, be involved in various aspects of college life, they will have what it takes to connect to a patient. No class/program will do it for you.</p>
<p>Once one starts their residency throughout the rest of one’s life, you will only have time for medicine. That is is why it is imperative to do something before hand. Dual, that is exactly the point, you start medicine day one.
BJ. The 7 year programs are very hard to get into and most are not “well rounded” - they can’t be!</p>
<p>In add’n. ask the school not about the residencies you mentioned which are specialties but of family practice, internal medicine and general surgery - and look at which programs they get into.</p>
<p>Miami, sorry, experience (mine and others) say different.</p>
<p>@princess’dad I’m already in the program. And I’ll link you the copy of the match list from 2012. The internals matched at mayo, wash u, emory, and brown. <a href=“http://www.med.umkc.edu/sa/match.shtml[/url]”>http://www.med.umkc.edu/sa/match.shtml</a></p>
<p>@Princess’Dad. What I was implying was that…on day one, the students begin to study about humanity by caring for other human beings…not the humanities. </p>
<p>On Day 1, they watch and learn about the hopes, aspirations, wonders, and tragedies about themselves and about the people that the have the privilege to care for. Isn’t that the goal of studying the humanities (literature, philosophy, etc.).</p>
<p>The results of the different paths can be the same. Ultimately, it’s up to the person, as MiamiDAP had mentioned. </p>
<p>I am not trying to argue with you. There are no arbitrator to decide. I’m just trying to persuade you … that your opinion is not absolute.</p>
<p>"Once one starts their residency throughout the rest of one’s life, you will only have time for medicine. "
- No family, no spouses, no kids, no friends, no vacations, no gym? Interesting. All MDs around me, have it all, I know them primarily thru thier kids, my D’s friends. Did I miss something in this comment?<br>
“. The 7 year programs are very hard to get into and most are not “well rounded” - they can’t be!”
-Hard, but not impossible, my kid got into 2 accelerated and one non-accelerated. She choose 4+4 because she wanted regular college experience. Yes, having 21 hrs every sememster does not leave much time for anything else. However, we have talked to current student in accelerated program (as part of interview process). They seem to be happy and go to gym every day and have some social events.</p>
<p>I hope that Princess’Dad recognizes that one’s bedside manner and soft skills as a doctor are shaped by the qualities of the individual rather than whether or not they took a few more humanities during college. That said, there may be a relationship between a person’s affinity for humanities vs. science and their affability as a doctor.There may also be something to be said about the type of people who choose to go to a program vs. not, but to be making absolute statements like Princess’Dad is flawed thinking. </p>
<p>Keep in mind, one of the reasons people chose to go to a program is because they realize that humanities are not necessary and they do not like them. I personally have read enough Shakespeare and other literary works to realize that those subjects are not my passion. Why would I care to spend extra time on subjects that I really dislike? I know I won’t pursue it any later in my life so does it add any value to my future? Obviously students should consider the fact that they lose the opportunity explore the humanities as much doing a program as opposed to going through a traditional undergrad but understand that not all people believe that humanities are “imperative.” I am not convinced that people are better doctors because they take more humanities and I am not fond of humanities so they would not add satisfaction to my life. Explain to me why it is imperative to go through normal undergrad and take more humanities. </p>
<p>I sincerely hope that you are being fair when you are judging candidates for a residency program. Just because an individual has spent less time in their undergrad and are thus less “well-rounded” doesn’t mean they will be worse doctors but you seem to unabashedly connect the two which is scary. Your humanities requirement is an arbitrary requirement; while it may add value, what matters is not if one took such courses but if it actually makes them better - that’s what should be judged. It is really easy to fall into psychological traps (e.g. confirmation bias) based on preconceived notions about program students. I hope you are conscious of this and take an unbiased approach to applicant evaluation.</p>
<p>^Hear, hear.</p>
<p>“I will not select a 7 year wonder in my program”</p>
<p>I strongly encourage you drop out your med/residency committee, excuse yourself from further passing judgement (before even meeting them) on kids, who made ONE decision at age of 17 to commit to a combined program (considering how many bad decisions they would potentially make in the long process toward MD). You need to let your committee aware of your bias, rational behind why they won’t be good doctors.</p>
<p>Well said…</p>
<p>Pcb</p>
<p>It is not just “my” opinion, but that of most Professors I know. We go by experience and while we do select (rarely) 7 year wonders,- we have found them not as good. As a committee, we always discuss, argue and agree on our biases. By the same token, there is a growing trend from medical schools not to select someone just out of college. Someone with “life experience” have added points.</p>
<p>As the the residency list posted, I think that also agrees with my post.</p>
<p>Miami, your D made a wise decision which she will never regret. And ask the docs on the soccer field what they have read recently besides medical texts and journals.</p>
<p>It is not seeing patients from day one. It is being able to discuss something besides “wasn’t that a great case”, " what is the price of gold" or “doesn’t he/she have a cute tush”. Sometimes go sit in a doctor’s dining room or an OR lounge and you will understand my comments.</p>
<p>If you are on such a program, great. For your own sake, however - find time to do things outside of medicine and find a group of friends that are not on medicine!</p>
<p>@princessdad I don’t see how the match list proves your point. We match people in very highly selective specialties but also internals in very competitive places. Both of which you asked about. How many of your traditional med students have done missions in Africa? We’re state champion wrestlers and basketball players? Gotten casted on glee? Or named miss teen missouri? These are all accolades of my classmates and I. The fact that you think we lack basic communication skills is absurd and quite frankly rude. Just because you think you paid your dies by going the traditional route doesn’t mean we haven’t. In fact, I feel like we put in more work and will reap more rewards. I’m by no means saying go to a combined program, it not for everyone. But don’t look down on us because we do. There is a reason many more programs like ours (the original combined program) are popping up everywhere.</p>
<p>@Princess’Dad. </p>
<p>You’ve been a doctor/surgeon longer than I have. You’ve also been on the Admission Committees of 4-5 medical schools/residency programs. Therefore, I value your opinions. But, let’s see if we can sort those opinions out so that we all can benefit from them.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Experience is the best teacher.</p></li>
<li><p>Just like UG schools, medical schools admission committees will look for well-rounded applicants who stand out. This is true of both accelerated and regular medical programs. Therefore, the applicants with “life experiences” will look more “attractive” then other applicants who just study science and do research.</p></li>
<li><p>As for residency program, (quoting from one of your previous post on a different thread) </p></li>
</ol>
<p>“Residency acceptance is still “the olde boys club”. I pick up the phone daily during match season and talk to chairman at program xyz and tell him that Susan will be a great Surgeon and an addition to his program. My Susan’s have always gotten their first choice. This is true for residency and fellowships. If their is no “olde boy” network at the school you are in and where you want to go, you must make one. You must spend an elective at that school and impress them.”</p>
<p>Therefore, networking and making connection are more important than being well-rounded?</p>
<ol>
<li><p>To avoid burn-out, a physician needs to find other things (non-medical) to do. This is where the arts, literatures, travel, music, sports, etc. comes in. Well-roundedness should help here.</p></li>
<li><p>“Desired” qualities of a doctor. These are your quotes</p></li>
</ol>
<p>“The science majors do not always make good holistic docs. It may be better to have a doc that can relate and talk to a patient than a science nerd.”
“Being a good doc is more than knowing biochemistry. It is the ability to relate and listen to your patient.”</p>
<p>This sounds like you are advocating good bedside manners…empathy, compassion, clear communication skills, etc. I don’t think that you were implying that patients will want to discuss Shakespeare with their doctors. </p>
<p>All of the above, I would agree with you. But, how you go from the above to this conclusion “do not do a 7 year. you will make a terrible doctor”…I do not understand.</p>
<p>Once accepted into an accelerated program, a student can proceed to do what he or she “loves” to do…learn medicine, take care of patients, making connection with the “olde boys club,” and gain EXPERIENCES in their craft of being a doctor.</p>
<p>It’s the same thing that you do now as a trauma surgeon. This is your quote
“Being a surgeon is probably the best job in the world. Unlike internists who push pills, I cure diseases. I don’t see my family at times. I come in at 4 in the morning to operate. So what, I love it.”</p>
<p>The mentality is the same. You are a competent surgeon because you spend time doing what you love. Students who spend time doing what they want to do (take care of patients) should become more competent doctors…not terrible doctors.</p>
<p>The last quote of yours, that I want to remind you of, is
“As an aside, I do not have anything against the HADES, etc. I do have something against those on the board who declare that x school is better than y school and that if a kid goes to z they will never succeed.”</p>
<p>Please practice what you preach. Don’t mess with accelerated medical school :)</p>
<p>For some reason, there is a notion of MD proffessionals working much longer hours than the resto of us. First, if they do, I am sure they are very well compensated for that not only in monetary terms bu also having the best job security that is out there. Second, some outside of medicine work 60+ hours every week for decades, while being compensated only for 40 and the rate is a fraction of MD salary and there is no such thing as job security. You can work your b–t off, achieve results that are beyond expected and be gone next day because they simply have to cut head count and employers know very well that they loose whole lot of talent and experience in this process, their main assets, but nothing they can do.<br>
Who out there is reading books? I do not know anybody besides one of my friend who do not work and another who works part time. They are simply boring, I cannot read them even during vacation. And besides, I never a time to have dinner, then we got out of habbit. You pick up a kid from school, drive her around to all acitivities, dinner is served to her in a car, warmed up at work in microwave. You go to gym / walk with frinds while kid is at her sport practice and you might need to take her to piano or art lesson before or after, then you come home and the only time is left is to pack all the food to take with you tomorrow, pack the sport bag, music bag, put everything in a car and start all over again tomorrow. That is if you do not go to schools youself working on MBA while working full time. Who said about what books, MD or not? After awhile, books become irrelevant, boring, whitten for who knows who, retirees? I lost interest long time ago, my D. has lost her interest in HS anyway. I do not think she is capable of reading novels, I see her trying, she much rather writes if she has some time at all.
Back to the discussion. I personally do not think that any program accelerated or not or whatever UG kid will end up going has much influence on personality. It is up to a kid to get involved, to seek experiences and to develop as a person. Some see importance of it and others do not, as simple as that. D. has met some from the most elite colleges/Ivy’s at her Med. School who lack in this area big time.</p>
<p>Dualdegree, I obviously agree with every thing you say. I can only say that by my experience and those of my colleagues, the 7 year wonders are not as we’ll rounded. Experience comes to why I like oranges and you like apples. Perhaps part of it is the comment one made here of “I’ll run to bank two years earlier”</p>
<p>Miami, may I suggest Lincoln, Thomas Becket, or LBJ the path to power. By the way, 60% of my patients have no insurance, so I don’t get “paid” for working late other than internal joy. And Moms (or homeDads) probably work the most hours of snyone</p>
<p>"And Moms (or homeDads) probably work the most hours " Homewhoever are very few and very rare. People work and then take care of house and kids and their own well being. If MD can afford having non-working spouse and if this spouse has agreed to stay at home, it does not spread to the rest of us. First, most others simply cannot afford having one income family and many spouses would not stay at home anyway. Whatever is done at home is not work, it is “AFTER work hours” home stuff, at least for the most around me with few exceptions, mostly for spouses of MDs and lawyers. And they still have cleanning lady and lawn service, they do not do everything themselves. So, what you are mentionning is an exception, not the rule.</p>
<p>PrincessDad, I very much like your last response to mine, reasoned and even-headed, I can see the med schools give more weights to 'life experience", same probably true in law/mba admissions. But would residence selection be more dependent on your achievement IN med school? I’m just thinking loud, no experience in the field. Your knowledge is definitely appreciated. I watch kids coming into finance (my field) every year, MAJORITY of them already had their eyes on it early on at young age, jumped a lot hoops (high threshold as well), succeed in gaining entry (future career success is different story). Same can be said about kids on this board. For you to declare absolutely not taking any of them under your program, seems a bit harsh punishment for aspiring kids here, who only intend to be a good doctor. Isn’t the clinical/residence training itself the most critical part of a long M.D career?</p>
<p>Pcb,
It is not absolute - but is a heavy negative starting poiny</p>
<p>pcb,
These kids will get somewhere. As long as they work hard and have what it takes, most places are not biased. There is no need to worry about them. But as a general point, very low percentage of original pre-meds will ever enter Med. School, in a combined program or not it does not matter. I heard about some straight from 6 year program getting into very desirable places, like Mayo clinic residencies. One place is not considering these applicants will not make a significant dent in overall picture.</p>